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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 June 2025
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Displaying 3510 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Yes—that is a really good point.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Sharon Wearing, in your submission you mention the importance of strong financial leadership and the fact that it has not been recognised in the consultation, the financial memorandum or indeed the bill. You also mention a lack of robust information. For the record, what additional information do you require at this point?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

The concern is that those costs use current expenditure as a starting point rather than the actual costs of the delivery of social care. All those who are responsible for the delivery of social care fear that there just will not be enough money, frankly, for the delivery of the service, especially given that, as a Parliament, we are already under severe financial pressure, local authorities are already facing financial restrictions, and we have an ageing population. How is that circle going to be squared?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

There are mountains of questions that I could ask, but colleagues will have issues that they want to raise and I do not want to steal all their thunder.

One issue that I want to ask about is VAT. From paragraph 52 of the financial memorandum, it looks almost as though a cavalier approach—a fingers-crossed, “it’ll be alright on the night” approach—is being taken. On pensions, it says that

“More work and engagement will be required to determine the most suitable and affordable design”.

On VAT, it says that

“If care boards are not able to reclaim VAT in a similar way”

to integration joint boards,

“there could be a significant financial impact.”

It goes on to say:

“Work is underway to understand this potential cost and how it might be mitigated to ensure maximum support for front line services. VAT costs are not assumed”.

What level of certainty do you have that we will be able to deliver the national care service if we do not get the VAT allowance that we hope to get and that integration joint boards get?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. I am sure that colleagues have a number of other questions that they wish to ask.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Hold on a second—we are not at the time when it was written any more. I am talking about where we are now, which is more important as we move forward.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

To be fair, having read all your written submissions, I think that you have more than misgivings. Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I am reading it is clear that there is strong opposition to the whole philosophy of the bill.

We are looking at the financial aspects of the bill. Sharon Wearing, what alternatives could the Scottish Government deliver if it was not going down this path?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I am looking for a one-word answer to get absolute clarification on that. Should the financial memorandum be revisited?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

It is a one-word answer.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I have just been advised that there are 1,044 care homes in Scotland.