łÉČËżěĘÖ

Skip to main content
Loading…

Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Filter your results Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 24 June 2025
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 3510 contributions

|

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Your response to question 7 talks about the volatility of inflation and about costs that have not yet been assessed. You also say that the

“variability of cost of staff harmonisation/rationalisation highlighted in paragraph 54 is not reflected in the range quoted.”

You use the word “significant” in saying:

“In our view there is likely to be significant uncertainty about the cost of harmonisation that goes beyond the extent of services and staff groups involved.”

What range would be more realistic than the range that has been quoted?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Hannah Tweed was nodding while Mark Taylor spoke. Your submission quotes paragraph 56 of the financial memorandum, which says:

“It is not anticipated that the establishment of the NCS and care boards, and the transfer of functions to those bodies, will have any financial implications for any other public bodies, businesses or third sector organisations, or for individuals.”

You disagree with that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

We are not looking for specific pounds, shillings and pence costs at this stage, but we are looking to see whether the parameters are correct and whether the best estimates have been delivered in the financial memorandum.

Cost underpinnings are important, because we are looking at structural changes and there seem to be colossal sums involved. We are not talking about building new headquarters for each of the boards or anything like that, but we are talking about hundreds of millions of pounds, and it is important to know how the figures have been arrived at, how accurate they are and so on. Do we have the best estimates?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much.

I will now open up the session to members. The deputy convener, Daniel Johnson, will be first.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

You were asked:

“If applicable, do you believe your comments on the financial assumptions have been accurately reflected in the financial memorandum”?

I found it interesting that you basically said that you did not believe that they had been. However, the Fraser of Allander Institute took the view that the

“analysis provided by the Scottish Government is reasoned and logical.”

Will Emma Congreve explain the institute’s thinking on that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that. You say in your submission:

“what could be the most significant”—

that great word again—

“public sector organisational change in recent memory must not be underestimated in both time, unnecessary distractions and increased costs.”

What do you mean by “unnecessary distractions”?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you.

Emma, I found the Fraser of Allander Institute’s analysis quite interesting with regard to table 3 in its submission. You say:

“Decisions relating to the number of Care Boards have not yet been made, and the figures in Table 3 assume 32 are created, one for each local authority area.”

Does it seem efficient to you to go from 32 local authorities to 32 care boards? What impact would that have on delivering what the bill is ultimately setting out to do, which is to ensure high and consistent quality of care across Scotland?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Do you have a view on that, Mark?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Do you have any fears about slippage in relation to cost? For example, it was indicated that the programme business case would be provided in the autumn, but we have not seen those figures yet, and they might or might not be available. Is it a worry that there might be slippage in cost and that the whole delivery might be delayed?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Kenneth Gibson

On the list that Douglas Lumsden touched on, the Audit Scotland written submission states:

“There are a number of costs associated with the measures set out in the Bill that have yet be assessed. The Scottish Government has recognised this providing a broad description of the anticipated cost and the difficulty in assessing it at this stage.”

It then lists the areas where information has not been provided, including on the cost of care boards, transition costs for local authorities and health boards, VAT, pension scheme arrangements, the extent of potential changes to capital investment maintenance and the cost of the health and social care information scheme. Should any of those have been included in the financial memorandum at this stage, or was the Scottish Government right on what was included?