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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 11 September 2025
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Displaying 3573 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Yes—I, too, am restraining myself from coming in on the back of that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

It looks like a Cy Twombly drawing—if it was, it would be worth around $70 million.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I wonder how that would work here, in reality. It depends on who is doing the scoring.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I mentioned the BBC to colleagues before the public session started. It is quite easy for reputations to disappear or be damaged almost overnight, to a degree.

I am jumping about a bit here, because the report is so interesting—I could spend the whole time asking loads of questions, but colleagues will want to come in, and they always get narky if I take too long at the start—I think that John Mason may agree.

You say in the report that the new public management approach did not succeed even according to the objectives that it set for itself, which is an interesting point.

I will highlight one of the issues. We can have all the great theories that we like and all the structures that we want to implement, but the important thing is to have capacity. You ask,

“Does the Scottish Government have sufficient policy capacity?”,

and you look at generalist civil servants versus specialisms. You talk about leadership training and how much capacity exists even outside the civil service for Government to tap into. You also mention

“the risk of ineffective government when policy capacity and training does not live up to the Scottish Government’s ... expectations”

and the expectations of the people whom it represents. Where are we at with capacity, and what could we do to improve and enhance it?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Ferries are boats that carry people.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

To wind up the session, I have three further questions to ask.

One of the things that I really like about your report is the wee take-home messages, which I think are quite helpful. In one of those, on page 16, you said:

“new ideas are applied patchily to established practices.”

How could that be improved?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

To follow up on that, you refer on more than one occasion to the need to trust public service professionals, which is obviously fundamental.

On the other side, I know that, when the Scottish National Party Government came in in 2007, there was concern that there was not any buy-in from the civil servants who were there, who did not think that the SNP was gonnae win and that, if it did, it was gonnae last six weeks and that Tavish Scott, as was famously said, was gonnae come in. Of course, that did not happen.

Civil servants are appointed to ministers. That is not how we, as łÉČËżěĘÖ, recruit our own staff in our own constituency offices, many of whom we have known for years; sometimes we have not known them that long, but they tend to be much more open about their political views with us.

How can we build that trust in such circumstances? Personal relationships are obviously key, but how can we do so on a broader basis?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I think that, from a politician’s point of view, there are some ministers who fear that they will be perceived as having a “Yes Minister” kind of relationship and that they will not be the ones who are running the show in their own departments, or that that is how it will sometimes be perceived. That can perhaps make relationships a wee bit difficult.

I will end on the “policy cycle” and “policy spirograph” images on page 17. Will you talk us through that a wee bit?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Well, the floor is yours.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the eighth meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. Our first agenda item is an evidence session with Professor Paul Cairney to inform our inquiry into effective Scottish Government decision making. Professor Cairney is a professor of politics and public policy at the University of Stirling and an adviser to the committee. As part of our inquiry, the committee commissioned Professor Cairney to provide a research paper on effective Government decision making, which has been shared with committee members. I welcome Professor Cairney to the meeting.

Before I invite Professor Cairney to make some opening remarks, I pass on apologies from Liz Smith, who is unable to make it to the meeting.