³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ

Skip to main content
Loading…

Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Filter your results Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 11 September 2025
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 3573 contributions

|

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Under our second item, we are continuing our inquiry into effective Scottish Government decision making. Today, we will take evidence from two panels of witnesses.

For the first evidence session, we will hear from Alex Thomas, programme director at the Institute for Government, and Dr Helen Foster of Ulster University. I welcome both of them to the meeting.

I intend to allow up to 75 minutes for this evidence session. We will move straight to questions. I will open with some questions; committee colleagues will then contribute.

In relation to the Tolley inquiry into the former Prime Minister, The Sunday Times editorial two days ago said:

“The civil service ... is one of the great institutions of state. Its effectiveness rests on its neutrality. That this is now in question reflects badly on ministers as well as officials. Civil servants must provide candid advice without fear of reprisal. But ministers must be able to demand professionalism and results from their officials without fear of a grievance claim.â€

Obviously, that referred to Westminster, but is it the same here?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Interests

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the 11th meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee.

We have received apologies from Liz Smith and Michelle Thomson, who cannot attend today’s meeting. Jamie Halcro Johnston is attending as Liz Smith’s substitute. I welcome him to the meeting and invite him to declare any relevant interests.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

The structure of civil servants at Whitehall—much of the civil service structure that we have here is more or less based on that—has been in place since 1854, when generalism was seen as the be-all and end-all. We are now in a much more sophisticated, high-tech society, and we have a lot of differences from previous generations. For example, contracts and procurement are complex and need specialist skills. Are we in a situation now in which we cannot deliver government without an increase in specialism and the generalism idea will just not cut it any more?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I do not think that anyone would want to replace generalists entirely. It is about the balance, is it not, Dr Foster? There is a concern about that. There is also a concern that people develop a level of expertise but, in order to get promoted, they get transferred into other areas of the civil service, and the skill is kind of lost.

There is also an issue about how some specialisms are valued. I read in The Economist a few weeks ago that the head of cybersecurity job at Westminster was advertised with a salary of less than £56,000 a year. That will not attract top-notch recruits in that kind of area—no offence to whoever gets the job in the end. If we are to get optimum decision making, where should the balance be struck between specialists and generalists?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Of course, consultants are often hired because the Parliament does not have the specialist capacity.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

The next question is from Ross Greer.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Okay. Douglas Lumsden will ask the next question.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

In theory, everyone agrees with the national performance framework and the outcomes that it seeks to achieve, but sometimes it contradicts some of the things that people want to make public announcements on. For example, it might contradict numbers. Someone might say that, for example, we want to achieve a certain health outcome by reducing the number of beds, but when it comes to reducing the number of beds, it causes political kickback. That was touched on earlier.

I want to finish off with a couple of questions, but before I do that, I will let Jamie Halcro Johnston in because I think that he has a couple of things he wants to ask.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

We are talking about how to improve Government decision making, whereas that is more about the choice of decisions, but Paul Sheerin made those points extremely well, and it was a good question from Douglas Lumsden. I have raised that issue with the previous First Minister in the Conveners Group, as well as in many other forums, including the chamber, so I am certainly on board with what is being said.

To follow on from that and finish off our questions, I will ask how decision making relationships with ministers can be improved. We have heard about how the private sector takes decisions and, before that, we had a session about how we can improve decision making in the public sector. How can that interaction with ministers be improved?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Rebecca Rigg, would you like to add anything?