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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 28 June 2025
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Displaying 3510 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Yes, that has come through strongly in evidence. I am now going to open up the session.

10:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

In theory, everyone agrees with the national performance framework and the outcomes that it seeks to achieve, but sometimes it contradicts some of the things that people want to make public announcements on. For example, it might contradict numbers. Someone might say that, for example, we want to achieve a certain health outcome by reducing the number of beds, but when it comes to reducing the number of beds, it causes political kickback. That was touched on earlier.

I want to finish off with a couple of questions, but before I do that, I will let Jamie Halcro Johnston in because I think that he has a couple of things he wants to ask.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

We are talking about how to improve Government decision making, whereas that is more about the choice of decisions, but Paul Sheerin made those points extremely well, and it was a good question from Douglas Lumsden. I have raised that issue with the previous First Minister in the Conveners Group, as well as in many other forums, including the chamber, so I am certainly on board with what is being said.

To follow on from that and finish off our questions, I will ask how decision making relationships with ministers can be improved. We have heard about how the private sector takes decisions and, before that, we had a session about how we can improve decision making in the public sector. How can that interaction with ministers be improved?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Rebecca Rigg, would you like to add anything?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Interests

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the 10th meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. Our first agenda item is a virtual evidence session with Diane Owenga, programme director of the Policy Project at the New Zealand Government’s Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, to inform our inquiry into effective Scottish Government decision making.

Good evening, Ms Owenga, and welcome to the meeting. I understand that you will provide a short presentation on the New Zealand approach.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I am delighted that Diane Owenga is back with us. You had not been—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I thank you for spending a big chunk of your evening with us; we realise that it is about half past 10 over in New Zealand. I apologise for the difficulties that we had. I am not sure what end they were on, but it was great that you soldiered on throughout. We really appreciate it.

At future meetings, the committee will continue taking evidence on effective Scottish Government decision making, and I certainly hope that we can engage with you again in the future.

That concludes the public part of today’s meeting.

10:28 Meeting continued in private until 10:57.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for that introduction. I do not know whether colleagues heard everything that you said, but we will certainly ask questions and probe.

I will kick off before I invite colleagues around the table to ask questions. I want to go back to the start of the process regarding the Public Service Act 2020, which followed on from another act 32 years previously. Why was it felt that legislation was needed in order to try to change the culture and behaviour in New Zealand?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

In effect, the process helps best practice to be inculcated across the entire Government. The interim evaluation that was commissioned in late 2020 touched on a number of points, one of which was the fast-paced change of policy work and the difficulties of changing entrenched behaviours. What kind of entrenched behaviours need to be changed in New Zealand?