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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 9 September 2025
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Displaying 3573 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for your opening statement, which is very helpful. It is interesting to see where we are compared with where we were less than a year ago. It is now broadly accepted that the financial memorandum that was produced was simply not up to the job, so it is good that the Scottish Government has had a complete rethink in that regard.

It is important that we are able to effectively scrutinise the financial memorandum. On 9 May, you said that you intend to give us four weeks before the stage 1 debate to scrutinise the updated financial memorandum. Is that still the Government’s position?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

You did not answer my question about how Scotland compares with other parts of the United Kingdom with regard to attractiveness for setting up a business.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I apologise. When I was asking questions earlier, I assumed that the figures were based on a quarter, but I now realise that they were monthly.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I think that you have a question for Sandy Begbie, so feel free.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Before I let John Mason come in, Michelle Thomson has a supplementary question.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the 24th meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. Under our first agenda item, we will take evidence from the Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport on the financial memorandum for the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. The minister is joined by Scottish Government officials Donna Bell, the director of social care and national care service development, and Fiona Bennett, the interim deputy director for national health service, integration and social care finance. I welcome the witnesses to the meeting.

I invite the minister to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I know that consultancy figures are around £246,000 less than anticipated, but it still seems an awful lot of money for training people on a bill when we do not know how it will look. It is clear in the papers that we have received that a lot of the co-design work continues to take place. What was the staff training on?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

You will understand that that makes scrutiny quite difficult. Minister, in your letter of 9 May, you said:

“It is not possible to separate costs relating to the provisions of the Bill and those which result from the wider NCS programme.”

That makes it very difficult to assess whether public money is being spent effectively. Can you give us a wee bit more information on that? One reason that the financial memorandum caused such alarm to the committee was because we were not getting those breakdowns and because of the scale of the money involved.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I will go into the figures in a minute or two, just before I let colleagues in, but I note that you said in your letter:

“An initial consensus proposal between the Scottish Government and Cosla (on behalf of local government) has been formed on a partnership approach that will provide for shared legal accountability. This will improve the experience of people accessing services by introducing a new structure of national oversight to drive consistency of outcomes, whilst maximising the benefits of a reformed local service delivery.”

You have also talked about the formation of a national board to provide

“national oversight and governance of social work, social care support and community health”.

How will that body actually work? When is it likely to be up and running, so to speak?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

One of the figures that draws the eye is expenditure on engagement. It was envisaged in 2022-23 that the cost would be £475,000, but it turned out to be £1,026,000. The cost has also declined to a very small £7,000 in the most recent quarter of the current financial year. Why did the Scottish Government get the figures for engagement so out of kilter, and why has there been such a decline in the costs? I would have thought that with co-design there would have been more rather than less engagement. What is the Scottish Government’s thinking in that respect?