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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 30 June 2025
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Displaying 3510 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland鈥檚 Finances

Meeting date: 3 October 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the 25th meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee.

There is one item in public on the agenda, which is an evidence session with the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance on the sustainability of Scotland鈥檚 finances, as part of our pre-budget scrutiny. The session will also cover evidence that we heard earlier in the year on public service reform.

Ms Robison is joined by Scottish Government officials. Dr Alison Cumming is director of budget and public spending; Dr Andrew Scott is director of tax and revenues; and Ian Storrie is head of local government finance. I welcome all of you to the meeting, and I invite the cabinet secretary to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland鈥檚 Finances

Meeting date: 3 October 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. I thank the Deputy First Minister for her responses. It has been a real shift鈥攁lmost two and a half hours. I congratulate you on your stamina. Unfortunately, despite the myriad questions, we did not touch on non-domestic rates, we did not really get into AI or data, and we did not really talk about public procurement or, indeed, council tax reform. I hope that you and your officials will look at the evidence that has been submitted by witnesses and deliberate on it as we move forward. I thank you once again for your answers, which are greatly appreciated by the committee.

That concludes the public part of the meeting. We will consider a report on the sustainability of Scotland鈥檚 finances and public service reform in private at our meeting on 31 October. We will now move into private session to consider our work programme. We will have a two-minute break to allow the Deputy First Minister, her officials and the official report to leave.

12:24 Meeting continued in private until 12:30.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland鈥檚 Finances

Meeting date: 3 October 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Indeed, but that is less than one third of the increase in social security spend. Do you accept that, if you are reducing money in other areas of public expenditure, that will, paradoxically, have an impact on people who are in the lowest quintile for household income, as they are the people who are most likely to depend on those services?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland鈥檚 Finances

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

The Scottish Trades Union Congress鈥檚 evidence to the committee was that the Scottish small business bonus scheme does not necessarily work. It has been saying that for years, incidentally. When I chaired our predecessor committee between 2011 and 2016, it made the same argument when it said that the money should go directly into public services. What would you say to that, Rachel? The STUC also said that if small business bonus money is to be spent, it should be tied to fair work. What do you feel about that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

That concludes questions from committee members, but I have one or two questions to wind up. I assumed that period 1 meant quarter 1 and I know that other members of the committee also thought that. If it just means April, why does it not just say April? We are talking about transparency and that is a pretty basic thing. Just put April 2024 for period 1, and put July 2024 for period 4. We all need to talk in simple straightforward language if we are going to talk about transparency.

We have talked about this being a framework bill and there has been much discussion about primary and secondary legislation. Given the changes that we have seen in the evolution of the bill in recent months, has the balance shifted between primary and secondary legislation? Will the bulk now be primary or secondary legislation? Where has that balance moved over the past few months?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland鈥檚 Finances

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I think that you have a question for Sandy Begbie, so feel free.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland鈥檚 Finances

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

We did not even get on to integration joint boards, community planning partnerships, and regional growth deals and city region deals.

I disagree with Mr Begbie; I certainly would take on such reforms. In Ayrshire, there are three councils and a health board. Why not have one structure? It is certainly my view that we should do that, and I have expressed it publicly over a number of years.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Are you saying that the objective remains the same but that the path to it has changed?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Indeed.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for your opening statement, which is very helpful. It is interesting to see where we are compared with where we were less than a year ago. It is now broadly accepted that the financial memorandum that was produced was simply not up to the job, so it is good that the Scottish Government has had a complete rethink in that regard.

It is important that we are able to effectively scrutinise the financial memorandum. On 9 May, you said that you intend to give us four weeks before the stage 1 debate to scrutinise the updated financial memorandum. Is that still the Government鈥檚 position?