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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 August 2025
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Displaying 3539 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

With that competent response, I shall move on to John Mason, who is to be followed by Liz Smith.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I call Michelle Thomson, whom we would never describe as boring and technical.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

That is fair enough. We will put all the really nasty questions to the minister next week.

Are there any further points that you would like to make before we wind up? Are there any points that you feel that we have not covered that you or your colleagues want to get over?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I think that we are conflating two things. One is whether Scotland’s aggregates tax, when it comes in, will incentivise the switch to recycled secondary products so that fewer natural products are used. The other issue, which you mentioned, is compliance. I think that everybody round this table wants those who are producing those aggregates but not currently paying taxes to pay those taxes. That is an absolute, and I think that everyone in the industry who is legitimate is doing that. I commend the fact that Revenue Scotland is determined to ensure that that happens.

I will switch back to that issue in a second, but I return to my initial question about a differential in taxation. We appreciate that recycled aggregates will be exempt from the tax, and that there are other issues, such as whether local authorities should be paying the tax. However, the idea behind the landfill tax was to encourage a change in behaviour. That has happened on a UK basis, but that tax has never varied between Scotland and England. The bill’s policy memorandum says that the approach is to ensure

“that the devolved tax can evolve over time to support Scottish Government circular economy objectives.”

It goes on to say that the objectives are to encourage the minimum necessary exploitation of primary aggregates, maximise the use of secondary and recycled aggregates, and incentivise innovation and development of alternative materials.

The tax on aggregates has been £2 a tonne since 2009, regardless of inflation and all the rest of it, and it is going up to a thumping £2.03 next month. Is that actually happening? How will £2 a tonne across the board in Scotland—the same as in England—possibly have any impact on behaviours?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Yes. We have not taken any evidence on that so far, so I would like to get your view on the public record.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

You said in your written submission that it appears “somewhat heavy-handed”, and Eric Brown and Isobel d’Invervo say much the same in their submissions in that regard. We will take evidence from Revenue Scotland subsequently, but my understanding is that collection rates for those other taxes are around 98 or 99 per cent, so I understand what you mean. Can Eric and Isobel comment on that part of the bill?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Eric, you said:

“We would ... suggest further controls ... are placed upon the system of credits with interactions between”

Scottish aggregates tax and UK aggregates levy

“to reduce the likelihood of potential abuses taking place.”

Will you tell us more about that?

09:45  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

That is why we are talking about a possible loss to the Scottish taxpayer of ÂŁ8 million to ÂŁ10 million.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

We have exhausted questions from members—

I am sorry. John Mason has a question, which I had a note of.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Anecdotally, it seems to me to be a bigger issue than the cross-border issue. We visited a secondary processor of recycled aggregates in Livingston, and the people there said that, because of the cost of transport, they would not even sell to Edinburgh, because it is too far away from the point of view of the money that they would make. Given that the land on both sides of the border is fairly depopulated and there is not much use of aggregates there, it would cost so much to export there that the cross-border issue is a bit of a myth. It would be an issue only if aggregates were being shipped from big quarries, such as Glensanda, which was referred to in the previous session.

How much of an issue is the cross-border issue? In section 4.15 of your submission, you said:

“We are working with stakeholders, the Bill team and HMRC, to identify the different types of cross border arrangements in order to establish the most effective and efficient way to administer the tax in those situations.”

What are those effective and efficient ways to administer the tax, following your deliberations?