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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 August 2025
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Displaying 3539 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I take the word “prudent” as meaning inertia. A company that is investing millions of pounds in buying or innovating with regard to the latest technology to process and recycle, in the belief that the Scottish Government will move forward to a circular economy, will not see any evidence that that is the case. I am seeing evidence of a bureaucratic change whereby a tax is being devolved without any seeming ambition to make it any different from the tax in the rest of the UK. There will then be a wrestle with the UK over the impact on our block grant and so on and what that means for Scotland. It seems to me to be completely underwhelming.

The business and regulatory impact assessment refers to introducing

“a replacement tax that retains the fundamental structure of UKAL”—

that is, the UK aggregates levy—

“while being tailored to Scotland’s needs.”

I am just not seeing anything that is tailored to Scotland’s needs. Who undertook that BRIA?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Is HMRC just not telling you? Why do you not have that data? Surely you have asked. It must have some information on that within a margin of 5 or 10 per cent. I would have thought that it is pretty straightforward.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I apologise. What part of the bill will help Revenue Scotland to deliver that outcome?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for that and thank you to your officials for their contributions today.

That concludes the public part of today’s meeting. The next item, which will be discussed in private, is consideration of our work programme. I call a five-minute break to allow the official report and our witnesses to depart.

10:37 Meeting continued in private until 11:05.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I will not bombard you with myriad additional questions, but I will ask one more. It is really from ICAS, which followed up a meeting last week with a wee letter. It concerns section 2, which I did not touch on because I knew that other colleagues were likely to do so, and states that, although we want to see the payment of taxes that are due, for those who fall foul of that requirement, there appears to be

“no official objection/complaints/appeals process”

in the bill,

“which seems to be inequitable.”

Will there be any change at stage 2 to alter that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I am sure that there is, and I am sure that colleagues will pick up on that issue. Meanwhile, let us go back to the crazy, wild world of aggregates and the legislation that is before us.

In your opening statement, you said that the levy will broadly align with the UK aggregates levy. You mentioned that limited data is available on Scottish aggregates, although we were told that about 5.5 million tonnes are shipped south of the border and that only about 16,000 tonnes are shipped north of the border. That is an issue, as it might mean that implementation of the aggregates tax would result in tax that currently comes to Scotland—worth perhaps £10 million a year—being lost to Scotland. Will you comment on that?

We are looking at a bill that will involve set-up costs of more than £4 million, with running costs of about £915,000 a year, according to the financial memorandum. The nudge and wink that you are giving us is that, although it is up to future budgets to set the aggregates tax, it looks as if it is going to be exactly the same—at the pennies—as the levy south of the border at present.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Yes, and 5.5 million tonnes was the total figure in the submission, but I imagine that that will vary from year to year, so it would be a ballpark figure.

Justine, your written submission states:

“It is vital that Revenue Scotland polices compliance with the tax effectively, hopefully by liaising extensively with SEPA and ensuring that SEPA has the powers and resources it needs to regulate the aggregates sector and ensuring that appropriate sanctions are in place for non-compliant behaviours which affect fair competition”.

You obviously have concerns about the way that the system is operating at the moment. Can you give us any specifics on how that could be improved through the bill?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

It is not a key focus.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I am going to open out the session to colleagues. I call John Mason, to be followed by Michelle Thomson.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I invite Michael Marra to ask the next questions.