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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 August 2025
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Displaying 3539 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

We talked about data earlier. One of the things that I was astonished by was that, despite the fact that we would think that the 32 local authorities would know exactly what is going on in their areas and would feed that information into the Scottish Government, there seems to be a bizarre lack of knowledge of just how many unregistered quarries there are in Scotland. They are producing who knows how much aggregate, on which the taxpayer is missing out on getting a return. Compliance is important. One of the positive benefits of devolution would be if there was a push to ensure that all those quarries are located and dealt with. Some people say, “Oh, you can just dig up a couple of hundred tonnes from a farmer’s backyard and fill in the land later.” However, from what we have been told, a lot of those sites are much bigger than that and are major quarries. It is bizarre that the UK Government does not seem to have done more work to implement a levy and trace those sites with HMRC. I hope that the Scottish Government and its agencies will do more about that.

What specifically do you plan to undertake in order to ensure that that situation—in which, arguably, people are effectively tax dodging—is addressed? What Mr Waite said about the supply chain is important, but what is going to be done to catch those who do not comply in the first place?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the 11th meeting in 2024 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. Agenda item 1 is to take evidence from the Minister for Community Wealth and Public Finance on the Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill. I welcome the minister and give apologies from Ross Greer, who has to attend another committee meeting.

The minister is joined by Scottish Government officials Jonathan Waite, the bill team leader; Robert Souter, a senior tax policy adviser; and Ninian Christie, a lawyer for the Scottish Government’s legal directorate. I welcome you all and invite the minister to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that helpful opening statement. I have scribbled down quite a few things to ask on the basis of your statement; I hope that I can read my writing when I try to ask my questions.

The first thing that I will ask about is the consultation on part 2 of the bill. Why did the Scottish Government not consult on those provisions? That caused some irritation among our witnesses last week from the Law Society of Scotland, the Chartered Institute of Taxation and the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Scotland.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

You have been talking to HMRC for two years, so I do not understand why you do not have that information.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

You talked about the Smith commission, but the committee has already said that it does not support the assignment of VAT because it would provide no advantage whatsoever to Scotland and trying to establish it would be a bureaucratic mishmash.

It is not just about devolving for the sake of devolving—there have to be some advantages. One advantage could be, as the Scottish Environment Protection Agency suggested,

“the use of secondary, recycled aggregates in Scotland as part of our shift towards a more circular economy”.

However, if you are not doing anything differently, there are no advantages. I note that you are saying that one day, in the far, distant future, the rate might be £2.05 as opposed to the £2.03 that it will be from April. I am sorry for being sarcastic, but the Government’s uber-cautious approach to the issue is underwhelming, to put it mildly.

I will move on—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I have other questions, but I want to open up the discussion to colleagues round the table, rather than holding the floor. I will bring in John Mason first.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I was going to ask you about that at the end, but as you are giving me a nudge and a wink to ask about it now, I suppose that I may as well. Last week’s witnesses called for a finance bill, as have Liz Smith and I and other committee members for a number of years, because that would provide an opportunity to make changes across areas for which we have responsibility and, as you know, the Government is working on six new taxes.

Such a system would make it a lot easier to locate where provisions are and would provide a timetable for people to feed into the process in order to make representations about what can be influenced or included in that year’s finance bill. That seems to me and other committee members to be a fairly logical step forward.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I suppose that, given what you have said, the sooner we start, the better.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

It is to do with section 130 of the Finance Act 2008, which has to do with debt management and is what HMRC uses. Basically, it is about the offsetting of debts and where that applies.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Kenneth Gibson

We appreciate that. Do you want to make any further points before we wind up the session, minister?