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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 29 June 2025
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Displaying 3510 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I am sorry, but it did, because nine months later it came to committee with all the additional information. That is why we are here today, because we were unable to scrutinise figures. I know that you do not like us to refer to other bills, but when other ministers and bill teams have come to us and it is clear that the financial memorandum bears no relationship to reality, they have gone away and redrafted it. Given that that has been the case, surely it would have been a lot simpler for the Government to decide that, because there has been a huge difference in the proportions and total sums involved in the bill, it should revise the financial memorandum before coming to the Finance and Public Administration Committee in March. There is no sense in coming to the committee with figures that are wrong, just because they were right nine months earlier.

You have said that stage 2 will not be until after October, so there will be a further difference between the figures in the financial memorandum that was presented in June last year and the figures that will apply in October this year. Surely, therefore, it is common sense to decide that, because the figures have completely changed, you will come to the Finance and Public Administration Committee with a revised financial memorandum. If that had happened, it is unlikely that you would even have had to give evidence today.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

We will leave it at that. I thank the cabinet secretary and her officials for their evidence this morning and I thank colleagues for their questions and contributions.

Are members content for me to write to the lead committee to provide an update on the evidence that we have received in relation to the bill, so that it can take that into account in its stage 1 scrutiny?

Members indicated agreement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

You said—I will quote you—that you “inserted” figures straight into the financial memorandum. What work was done to interrogate the accuracy of the figures that you were given?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I am sure that colleagues want to interrogate the financial memorandum in greater detail, as I have hogged the first 15 minutes of the session, but I will ask one last question before I open it up to them.

One of the costings in the financial memorandum is about the code of ethics and the duty of candour. Those were costed at zero because, originally, they were to be absorbed within the existing police budget. However, that has been reconsidered and we are now looking at a one-off cost of £1,522,000 and recurring costs of £793,500; a breakdown of those costs follows in your letter.

How can there be such a huge differential? Surely there must have been discussions before the bill was introduced on whether there would be such significant costs. It seems to me very odd that a huge section of the financial memorandum was classed at zero cost, given that there is not only a significant initial cost but on-going, recurring costs.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Aye, indeed.

That concludes questions from committee members. I have a couple more questions.

I am sure that I asked this earlier, too. Did your officials interrogate the figures that were given by the police, to check that they were an accurate reflection? My understanding is that officials just accepted the updated figures from the police.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I notice that a lot of our guests are very coy. So far, only ˿ have indicated that they want to come in.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. I now close the meeting.

Meeting closed at 11:43.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Prior to stage 1.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Okay, who wants to go first?

10:15  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Good.