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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 August 2025
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Displaying 3539 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

In relation to the question that we asked about capital expenditure, one issue that you talked about in detail was transparency. You said:

“the Scottish Government should understand what effect its prioritisation of its capital projects will have on achieving its ambitions of growing the economy, improving public service and tackling climate change.â€

However, you added:

“The Scottish Government should be transparent about these decisions, how and why they have been made and the impact they will have on public services.â€

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Do you have concerns that the capital pipeline programme, which we were supposed to receive early this year, has been repeatedly delayed and will not now appear until after the budget?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Professor Heald, you have also expressed great concern about productivity. Where should the Government take forward its capital expenditure, given that you have been very critical of the reduction of capital expenditure in recent years, as allocated by the UK Government?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I remember visiting the Faroe Islands and being astonished at the low cost of building tunnels that were 10 or 20km long. At one time, we were talking about building a tunnel under the Forth bridge, which was costed at some ridiculous figure of about £2 billion. Years later, the Faroe Islands can build huge infrastructure projects for a fraction of that price. That is a very important point.

I have one final question to ask before I open up the session to colleagues. It is about tackling the climate emergency, which is one of the Government’s four priorities. Earlier this year, I and other colleagues attended a presentation by the Scottish Fiscal Commission in which it said that the cost to the public and private sectors in Scotland—obviously, this is not an exact science, given that we are talking about the period to 2045—would be a combined £185 billion. While much of that would have to be paid by the public sector, whether devolved or UK, a lot would have to come from the private sector. Per capita, that is a lot of money—it comes to about £35,000 each. Those figures were broken down by sector.

One point that the SFC emphasised was the fact that the longer we delay taking action on the issue, the more expensive it will be to mitigate it. Do you think that, in its budget, the Scottish Government should do more to focus on tackling the climate emergency and to make it clear how it is doing that in the various portfolios?

Professor Bell, you are looking skyward, so I will ask you first.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

What would a wrong turn be, for example?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Of course.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

In the 20th century, Scotland had the lowest population growth of any country on earth. I think that 2 million people migrated in the half century before this Parliament was established, so that is a long-term issue.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I am very keen on radical reform in that area. We will not go into that specific reform, but I have a couple of final questions, one for Professor Bell and Richard Robinson and the other for Professor Heald.

My first question is for Professor Heald. This is not specifically about reform but it follows up what you said. In your answers and responses today, you have been really good at putting a lot of what is in your document on to the record. I appreciate that. We have not really talked an awful lot today about the issue of improving public services. Your submission says:

“I have long been worried by the squeezing out of public services expenditure ... by expenditure which is volatile and not amenable to precise forward planning.â€

You have talked about some of that already. You say:

“In England, such expenditure is

annually managed expenditure

(with the Treasury funding overspends due to higher claims on pre-set eligibility criteria), whereas in Scotland such expenditure is effectivelyâ€

departmental expenditure limit

“(with the Scottish Government having to finance excess expenditure out of the combination of the Barnett formula-determined Block Grant and Scottish tax revenues). This constitutes a serious risk to public services expenditure.â€

How do we mitigate such volatility in our current situation?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Professor Bell, on the issue of public service reform, the Royal Society has noted

“that there has been more growth in public sector pay at the lower end of the workplace scale than there has been at the top.â€

We know that, on average, the average public sector employee in Scotland earns £2,400 a year gross a year, and £1,500 net, more than those south of the border. You have said:

“The public sector pay policy should align with the market value of the skills needed to deliver transformational change.â€

Do you think that the Scottish Government was wrong to emphasise pay rises for lower-paid workers? The alternative is to increase the size of an envelope that is already under strain from higher pay settlements.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Because of the numbers.