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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 13 August 2025
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Displaying 653 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Keith Brown

I am grateful that you acknowledge the pressures. You mentioned the idea of a cap. There is a cap鈥攖here is a cap on all that we do in the sense that we have the block grant, added to by whatever tax that we raise here and other sources of income. Therefore, that cap exists and has always been there. You are right that the question is how to marry things up within those pressures. I have no intention of overseeing a budget for the police force that results in 4,000 officers leaving. Despite press reports to the contrary, we have a very stable workforce in the police in Scotland鈥攎uch more so than is the case in other parts of the UK鈥攁nd there is real interest in applying for senior positions in the police force here.

On the point about situations where the police do not turn up for things, that has happened in many communities south of the border. In some communities south of the border, there has been no investigation of burglaries and other crimes for over a year and there is no intention to hold those investigations. We do not intend to oversee such a situation. However, I know from the discussions that I have had with the Scottish Police Authority and the police that they want to ensure that their model of policing is up to date and fit for going forward, rather than always looking back.

It is worth pointing out that the police start from a very strong basis. A police constable in Scotland gets about 拢5,000 more per year when they start than those elsewhere, and every rank up to assistant chief constable is paid higher in Scotland than elsewhere. We also have some of the lowest-ever recorded levels of crime. Therefore, the police start from a strong position and they do not intend to yield that position.

Based on the discussions that I have had, I think that there will be reprioritisation. Cybercrime is a real challenge, and the police will want to do more on that. There might also be a reconfiguration with regard to how the police want to deal with violence against women and girls. The position will develop over time, but the police will not have that level of fall-off in officer numbers鈥攁t least, there will not be a net fall-off of 4,000 officers. We do not intend to see that happen at all.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Keith Brown

Yes, I think that it will remain in operation, and no, of course I am not happy when there has been a service failure. Those failures have been well publicised, and I have raised them with both the SPA and the chief constable when they have happened.

However, the contact assessment model that is now used is very effective when it is used properly. That is probably borne out by the fact that in Scotland鈥擨 think that I am right in saying鈥攖he number of calls that are answered within 10 seconds is around 10 per cent higher than it is elsewhere in the UK. The rate for the proportion of calls that are answered in under 10 seconds currently sits at around 79.9 per cent, in comparison with 68.3 per cent for the rest of the UK. That should not be the only bar, however, and we acknowledge that the rate has to be higher. Nonetheless, the rest of the UK is a useful comparison, because many of the same pressures apply.

We have had the HM Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland assurance review into the contact assessment model for call handling. I do not deny that it identifies issues, but it also identifies a number of real successes. We welcome Police Scotland鈥檚 plans to introduce the new digital contact platform, which will help to strengthen both the 101 and 999 services. Once again, I highlight that those are operational matters for the chief constable, and oversight of them is provided by the Scottish Police Authority.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Keith Brown

I understand the point that Pauline McNeill is making, but she also started her comments by saying that she knows that I cannot comment on some of those things. Whatever else it was, the decision was taken by an independent Crown Office, so she knows the constraints around what I can say, but she also knows the process for accountability that is in train for that. If there is a subsequent inquiry, that will also be independent. That is the reason why I am not able to say more at this stage.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Keith Brown

If there is a public inquiry, some people would term that as a process of accountability.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Keith Brown

That is exactly the nature of the process. The plan specifically in relation to policing has to acknowledge the central role of the chief constable and the SPA. As recently as yesterday afternoon, there have been extensive discussions on those issues with the chair of the SPA and the chief constable. The intention is to ensure that the Cabinet, the Government and, I hope, the Parliament can support that plan in due course. Live issues very much along the lines that you have described are being discussed.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Keith Brown

With mental health professionals attending directly?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Keith Brown

It is probably important to say that鈥攁s I am sure that Katy Clark knows鈥攂ody-worn cameras incur both a capital and a revenue cost. Where the information that is gathered by the body-worn camera goes is an important consideration, too, as are the logistics behind that, which also has impacts for both the capital and revenue budgets. The ultimate decision rests with the chief constable, but I acknowledge that it will depend on the resources that he has.

10:30  

You have drawn a comparison with south of the border. We are a bit different in Scotland, in so far as the proportion of the police budget that is spent on people is substantially higher in Scotland, which puts pressure on the remainder of the budget and what else can be done with it.

We have had representations from the Scottish Police Federation and others. The federation said that its priority, as one stakeholder, was the pay and conditions of officers, such was the pressure that they had been under, and taking into account the impact of the cost of living. We have responded to that. It is also true to say that we cannot spend the money twice. I acknowledge the financial constraints.

I am a supporter of body-worn cameras, which I think can achieve savings in the longer term, for various reasons鈥攚hich you will be aware of鈥攂ut we have to live within the resources that we have. Ultimately, however, a decision on further roll-out will be for the chief constable to take.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Keith Brown

My colleague Neil Rennick may be able to say more about the figures, but the extent to which that has been a priority throughout the pandemic is evident when we look at the balance of cases. To clarify, the success that I mentioned relates to summary courts. There has been a reduction of 12,000 cases鈥攆rom 44,000 to 31,000, more or less. That is proceeding well. However, we do not see the same level of progress when it comes to solemn courts, so a change has been made by the court service to switch resources in order to effect a similar reduction in the solemn side of things鈥攚hich may include some of the cases that Rona Mackay was talking about.

It might be worth hearing from Neil Rennick about domestic abuse cases.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Keith Brown

I think that you know about the processes for accountability that are in train, and I have nothing to add to that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Keith Brown

That is a very good point. Obviously, members have been talking to the police. The police will tell members about the frustrations that they feel about the time that is tied up in court, sometimes for cases that do not happen.

Neil Rennick can say more about the current pilot in Dundee, Hamilton and Paisley. As the need to address that issue is so urgent, we have said that, at the very earliest point at which we see promising outcomes from that to do with the way that cases are managed, we want to roll those out across Scotland. That is part of the discussions that we have had with the chief constable. It might be worth hearing a bit more about the detail of that from Neil Rennick.