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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 7 August 2025
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Yes, but you are saying that they are peers. I could be put on a jury to hear a case about a sexual assault involving an 18-year-old, but I am living in a different world.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Mr Di Rollo?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Thank you. That was very helpful.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Do you not think that the difference between there being a jury and there not being a jury, given the very helpful distinction that Mr Di Rollo put on the record between impressionistic, performative issues for the jury and analytical presentation to a judge, would fundamentally affect the experience of a complainer? I cannot for a moment imagine that your line of questioning to a witness would be the same in those two different contexts.

11:45  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Do any of the other witnesses want to reflect on my points?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Is the Law Society active in protecting the interests, perspectives and experiences of complainers and victims who have been on the receiving end of what all of us would judge to be inappropriate conduct?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

That analogy is fair, and I accept it, but my point was that there must also be a regulatory element, because I worry about conduct.

The profession is very exercised about all aspects of supposed interference in its regulation. I have heard that over many years. However, some people are ill served. In my humble opinion, the profession does not have the strongest foundation for its position.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

My question follows directly on from that point. Mr Di Rollo told us that he appears in cases in front of judges and it is an analytical experience, if I can express it that way. Is there something philosophically wrong with that concept? Sheila Webster and Mr Lenehan talked about the importance of being judged by your peers, but juries are selected from the full range of the population. On juries that are looking at sexual assault cases involving 18 and 20-year-olds, there will be a lot of 50-year-old men and 60-year-old women who, frankly, in my humble opinion, grew up in a different world from the one that we now live in. I speak as a just-about-to-be-60-year-old man鈥攊t is full disclosure here today.

I am struck by Mr Di Rollo鈥檚 earlier point that his cases are heard by a judge, which is fine. Everyone says that that is okay, so what is wrong with it in these cases?

13:00  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

My point is that Mr Di Rollo has put on the record that he is able to stand in front of a judge and get an analytical experience and a statement of reasons, and I am asking whether there is something philosophically wrong with that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Okay鈥攚e will hear from Mr Di Rollo in a second, which I look forward to.