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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 20 August 2025
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Government鈥檚 Continuous Improvement Programme

Meeting date: 26 April 2022

John Swinney

After the 2021 election, there was a formal induction programme for ministers. That covered a range of topics from administrative and process type issues such as the one that we are discussing鈥攖he expectations of interaction with private offices鈥攖o some of the wider, policy-specific areas. For example, all ministers were briefed on some of the policy objectives on climate change, recognising that that policy objective transcends individual portfolios.

A mixture of policy and process induction has been undertaken since the 2021 election. Should there be any change to ministerial appointments, a similar programme will be put in place to ensure that any incoming minister who does not have previous experience will be suitably briefed.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Government鈥檚 Continuous Improvement Programme

Meeting date: 26 April 2022

John Swinney

The selection process has been undertaken in the same way as we would normally undertake a public appointments process. There is a person specification and people are invited to apply. There is then a sifting process and a selection process, which is undertaken in accordance with the approach that we take to public appointments in general.

The individuals are essentially retained individuals and they will be paid a daily rate to reflect the work that they undertake. For example, should there be a case to be investigated or decided upon, a selection process would be undertaken to identify which person from the panel was suitable to undertake that investigation. In selecting the investigator, it will be crucial to make sure that there is no prior involvement with any aspect of the case or the individuals involved, and there will be a similar test in relation to the decision maker, who will be a different individual from the investigator. They will be remunerated for the time that is required to be spent on the task that they are allocated to undertake.

We have had preparatory discussions with those individuals through an induction process, and, as I reported to the committee, they have come through a selection process to be appointed to the roles in the same way as we undertake the public appointments process. I am not sure whether Ian Mitchell wants to add anything to that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Government鈥檚 Continuous Improvement Programme

Meeting date: 26 April 2022

John Swinney

There are two different dimensions to take into account here. The first is the people survey which, as Lesley Fraser has said, is part of a UK civil service-wide proposition. It can give us some insight into these issues, but it is not exclusive.

That brings me on to the second dimension, which I think lies at the heart of Michelle Thomson鈥檚 question. How do we design an approach that enables us to be confident that the continuous improvement journey is having a positive effect in the organisation? That will require us to develop our thinking about the process, which will inevitably have to be much more qualitative than quantitative. We might, for example, have to think about how we formulate conversations with staff in order to inform that qualitative process, if that is the type of information that we are trying to extract from this experience. There will be quantitative indicators that we can identify, but I do not want it just to be a quantitative survey. It must begin to delve into the experience of members of staff in the working environment鈥攈ow satisfactory is it and what can we do to strengthen and improve it?

11:00  

I am happy to update the committee over time, in our periodic updates, on how that work is being undertaken to develop the framework and any thinking or expectations from the committee in that respect would be very welcome.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Government鈥檚 Continuous Improvement Programme

Meeting date: 26 April 2022

John Swinney

A range of measures are being undertaken. There is the routine training and development of members of staff, as well as the processes and procedures of the civil service, which ensure that we have in place the appropriate support for ministers in the taking of decisions and that there is a very clear and transparent process for that. Obviously, that will vary across different parts of the organisation. Ultimately, the decisions that are taken by Cabinet are taken through the Cabinet decision-making process, and all the elements of the decision-making process are kept under constant review.

In relation to some of the wider issues around the procedure that I set out in my opening statement, steps have been taken to ensure that staff and ministers are aware of all the details of the complaints procedures so that complaints can be handled properly and appropriately.

The Government focuses on its obligation to share widely the information that is available to it through routine publication schedules, of which there are a significant number. It also responds to the more detailed and specific requests for information that invariably come through the freedom of information regime and other channels.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Government鈥檚 Continuous Improvement Programme

Meeting date: 26 April 2022

John Swinney

Generally, the staff response has been good. The survey evidence that you highlight indicates that staff are aware of the efforts that are being made to ensure that we have the appropriate culture in which staff can operate, that it can be reflected in their experience and that staff feel empowered to influence the process and to raise any concerns that they may have.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Government鈥檚 Continuous Improvement Programme

Meeting date: 26 April 2022

John Swinney

Work is constantly undertaken to ensure that we have appropriate record keeping, which will vary across a range of interactions around individual cases.

There must be the most assiduous recording of decision making within Government at different levels, whether that is at official level or involving ministers. There will be decision making that has to be recorded through formal channels, such as Cabinet decision making and the processes that are involved in that.

We undertake work to ensure that officials are trained and experienced in the capturing of the processes of governance. That stretches beyond decision making to charting the different stages in the development of a policy. Policies will evolve over time, with extensive and detailed interaction on particular questions. It is important that we have an account of how such decisions have been arrived at that can be readily made available when required.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Government鈥檚 Continuous Improvement Programme

Meeting date: 26 April 2022

John Swinney

We will have to consider what communication will be undertaken based on any updates to the procedure. There would have to be an open process of communication. In fact, if there were to be any change to the process in the years to come, ministers would be under an obligation to advise this committee of exactly that, which puts it into the public domain immediately. We would have to reflect on that specific practical issue, but a change to the procedure would be a matter of public record. Such a development would be communicated to the committee and more widely as a consequence.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Government鈥檚 Continuous Improvement Programme

Meeting date: 26 April 2022

John Swinney

I am simply saying that that is terminology with which we are all familiar.

The exception was the First Minister, who was briefed separately. I essentially convened those briefings with the permanent secretary. We had input from specific members of staff who were involved in the formulation of the briefing. There was an explanation of the procedure, and written copies were provided to ministers in advance of the briefing session. There was an opportunity for ministers to raise questions about any issues relating to the procedure. I confirm that all ministers were party to that briefing and, as I said, the First Minister was briefed separately. All members of staff were made generally aware because it is important that they all hear the message.

10:45  

I understand the distinction that Mr Johnson makes about staff who will be in the closest proximity to ministers. That is not always driven by seniority. It is driven by close proximity. I work closely with some staff who are more junior but I could not function without the excellent support that they provide for me. It is important that that is reflected in who is advised about the procedure.

That work is under way. Specific briefing sessions are being undertaken with private offices because there is a huge amount of interaction between ministers and private offices. That must be the area of most interaction between civil servants and ministers. There is a range of other interactions more generally across the specialisms in the Government. We must ensure that members of staff have access to the procedure. I am satisfied that that is available but, as the continuous improvement programme indicates, on-going dialogue will ensure that that is the case.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Government鈥檚 Continuous Improvement Programme

Meeting date: 26 April 2022

John Swinney

Obviously, we do not comment on individual cases of this nature. Those matters are kept confidential, to protect the interests of all involved. We hope not to have to use the procedure.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Government鈥檚 Continuous Improvement Programme

Meeting date: 26 April 2022

John Swinney

The best way to answer that question is to reference the point that I made in my opening statement about the values of the organisation and what we expect to see in that respect. The flipside of that is that the behaviour that has to change is any behaviour that is incompatible with those values. We have set out in a proactive and positive way what the values of the organisation are and what we expect to see from members of staff. That is openly communicated to members of staff, and any individual who believes that they are in a working environment that is not consistent with or conducive to those values is given a platform from which to raise their concerns through the internal processes of the Scottish Government.

I hope that members of staff will take a very clear signal from the communication of those values that that should be the norm of their experience and that, if it is not, there are channels for them to raise such concerns through and that those concerns will be addressed. It has been encouraging to see a positive response within the staff surveys in relation to the reduction of behaviours that we would all judge to be unacceptable.