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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 8 August 2025
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

John Swinney

I have questions on part 4 of the bill in relation to the composition of juries. Will you share any issues that you believe that the committee needs to be mindful of in the consideration of the parts of the bill that relate to the change to the jury majority provisions from a simple majority to a two-thirds majority? What should the committee consider in relation to that proposal?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

John Swinney

Is it the position of the judiciary that, if we abolish not proven, we should retain 15 as the jury size and a threshold of 10 should be arrived at for conviction?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

John Swinney

I thank the witnesses for being here today and for their important and valuable work.

Lady Dorrian, when she appeared before the committee, made an important point in respect of what we are talking about. She said that, until the age of social media, the common assumption was that an anonymity provision existed, because it was, in essence, voluntarily respected by what one might call the established media, but we are now in a very different era.

Following the convener鈥檚 line of questioning, I am interested in whether you believe that the bill鈥檚 provisions cast the net wide enough to address not only the current media that we know about but the media that we might not know about, which might be yet to come.

11:45  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Thank you for that. That answer gets into some of the territory that links with other parts of the bill with regard to trauma-informed practice. One of the themes of the bill that I have been interested in is that, if that principle is to be faithfully applied in all situations, the courtroom dynamics have to change dramatically as a consequence. Would you agree with that conclusion?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

That is really interesting. You have made the point, points were made to us by Lady Dorrian, and the point was made very powerfully to us by the citing of a case by the Lord Advocate in the same evidence session on 10 January. In that case, the Court of Appeal laid down a very hard judgment about the conduct of a case in 2020, which is not terribly long ago. I have read the judgment of the Court of Appeal, which makes grim reading in 21st century Scotland. When I read that as a member of Parliament, I think to myself that we had better legislate for that because, even with the direction that I recognise that there has been from the Lord President and the Lord Justice Clerk throughout their tenure in order to improve those issues, there is still a way to go. Mr Di Rollo said that there is still a way to go.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

I want to pursue a point that Professor Chalmers made鈥攁lthough it relates to the contributions of all our witnesses鈥攁bout the adequacy of the research base.

If I have heard it once in my time that we do not have enough research on a subject, I have heard it a million times. The airing of the research this morning has been enormously helpful in informing the committee鈥檚 proceedings, and my conclusion is that we should look at all the research in the round and make our judgments out of it. Would it be fair to say that the gold standard of research that we require here is to understand better the deliberative process of individual and collective jurors, and that we will never be able to fully get a hold of that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

In that circumstance, though, we would have a written judgment that we could all pore over.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

The necessity of the reform provides the impetus for the action to be undertaken.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Correct.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

I will take that example. That strikes me as highly analytical. I understand that point. Mr Di Rollo has just said that, although the culture has changed a lot, it has not changed enough. It still strikes me, as a member of Parliament who is scrutinising a bill on victims, witnesses and justice reform, that there is a risk that victims鈥攃omplainers鈥攎ight well be subjected to conduct that, if we do not pass the bill, might not be addressed by the reforms that we might leave for the legal profession to make in a piecemeal fashion.