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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 August 2025
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Redress Scheme

Meeting date: 12 January 2023

John Swinney

I do not know the answer to your question, and I do not know whether I could answer it. I cannot answer it now because I most definitely do not have detailed knowledge of any application, and I am not actually sure that I could ask anyone, if you get what I mean.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Redress Scheme

Meeting date: 12 January 2023

John Swinney

I am not being difficult, but we have to be awfully careful about the personal data issues involved, so I am not sure about that.

Nevertheless, there is a deeper point that underpins Mr Marra’s question, which is whether there is a route for such a process to happen. I think that there is. That is the reassurance that I have given to the group that came to see me.

I listened to the quotes that Mr Marra gave—this relates to the key paragraph that I read out from Jackson Carlaw’s letter to me—and I can understand why people think, “The state was all over this.” An interesting and disturbing conversation can be had with Fornethy survivors to work out why they were there. I am really struggling with that point because, from listening to their stories, I cannot fathom it.

That is why I say that I think that the scheme is perfectly open to Fornethy survivors. However, I have to satisfy myself, and I do not think that I can do that by being able to answer the question that Mr Marra put to me on whether a survivor has been successful. I do not think that I will ever know the answer to that question unless a Fornethy survivor tells me.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Redress Scheme

Meeting date: 12 January 2023

John Swinney

At this stage, I would say that all public organisations have to be open and candid about things in the past. The Scottish Government established the Scottish child abuse inquiry because we came to the conclusion that, despite a number of very welcome, well-thought-through approaches to try to address the deep trauma, hurt and agony of individuals, we had not done that successfully without airing the truth about all this.

The Scottish child abuse inquiry is generating material that is unfathomable. In some cases, I readily admit to finding the material unreadable—I literally cannot read some parts of it. It is about the country facing up to its past and its obligations, which is incredibly difficult. I say to any organisation in the country that this is not a moment to be anything other than candid.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Redress Scheme

Meeting date: 12 January 2023

John Swinney

The advance payment scheme was handled pretty swiftly, pretty timeously and pretty straightforwardly. Of course, there is a big difference between the advance payment scheme and this scheme. The advance payment scheme had a much lower bar of evidence and process than is involved in the fully legislated-for scheme. In that respect, Mr Mundell puts his finger on a fair point, which is that we probably conveyed the impression that there would just be a continuation of the swiftness of the advance payment scheme, when that is not what would happen. What we were legislating for was more complex and demanding, so that is one factor.

There is another factor. I hope that I have been as candid during the meeting as I set out to be when I came into the room this morning. I have said that applications came in with varying degrees of evidence: some applications came in with literally only a name, an address and “I was in care at X” and others came in with a folder of stuff and with all the evidence marshalled and all the rest of it. Those two examples of applications require significantly different levels of time and attention.

Therefore, although we have a number of applications that require a lot of development work, I am not sure that I could describe them as “applications”—they are almost pre-applications. In saying that, I am not being in any way disrespectful to what has come in, but I am trying to give colleagues the sense that a lot of development work was required. Although we have got—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Redress Scheme

Meeting date: 12 January 2023

John Swinney

No, 22 is the gap between Redress Scotland determinations and acceptances; it is the number of people considering offers that have been made to them. There have been 19 review cases: four of those remain in progress and have not yet had an outcome; three have resulted in the initial determination being upheld; and 12 have had the initial determination varied—which means that the offer of financial redress was increased.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Redress Scheme

Meeting date: 12 January 2023

John Swinney

The process is about looking again at the information; I am not sure that it involves new information.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Redress Scheme

Meeting date: 12 January 2023

John Swinney

It is difficult for me to give a specific answer to that, because the applications are so individual and come in at such different stages of development. Some applications come in with quite a lot of information and evidence, and they can be processed and passed to Redress Scotland quite quickly. Once an application goes to Redress Scotland, the process time for determination is something of the order of 21 days.

It is difficult to give a figure for the stages prior to that, because the evidence base and the quality of the applications vary significantly and caseworkers might well be actively involved with an applicant in trying to source additional information. An individual might submit an application and be allocated a caseworker, and the caseworker might have to work with them to develop a sufficient evidence base to make the application as strong as possible. That will influence the amount of time that is deployed and the turnaround time on individual applications.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Redress Scheme

Meeting date: 12 January 2023

John Swinney

Twenty-three.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Redress Scheme

Meeting date: 12 January 2023

John Swinney

I do not know the answer to whether the review process will involve the ability to gather new information. That is an issue for Redress Scotland, and is not on the Government’s side of things because Redress Scotland is making determinations at arm’s length from Government.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Redress Scheme

Meeting date: 12 January 2023

John Swinney

We are prioritising applications from people who have a terminal illness or who are over the age of 68. We utilised those two criteria in the advance payment scheme that we put in place in advance of establishing Redress Scotland, when we used the general powers that were available to the Government to put in place a temporary scheme, and we continue to apply them.

Although they might not have been allocated a caseworker, we have started a process of calling individuals to tell them that we have their application and it is being looked at. We are contacting individuals in a way that was not done in the beginning, as we recognise that there was a gap. People submitted their application and then there was a bit of a vacuum.

We put in that call to people within six weeks of the application being submitted so that they know that it has been recognised and is going through the process but that it might be some time before we get to it. As I say, I believe that we now have more momentum within the system, but we are yet to see the fruits of the recruitment of the additional caseworkers.