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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 5 August 2025
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

That exchange rather says to me that the association is picking and choosing what it is engaging with. That is where I have a difficulty with the association鈥檚 position, because that relates directly to the rule of law.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

If the association believes in the rule of law, on what basis do your members have the right not to follow the rule of law?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

That rather matters to Parliament as well, and especially to those of us who believe in the rule of law.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

I do not follow the point that you have made in this argument. You have accepted that Parliament has the right to legislate in those areas. If that is the case, and if Parliament has decided that that is to be the structure of our criminal justice system, that is the definition of the law. I do not understand how members of the profession, who will do as you have done today and profess that they support the rule of law, can actually fulfil that and hold the position that you have set out, if the democratic institutions have decided that that is an appropriate step for us to take.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

The answer that you have just given is slightly different from the ones that you gave me. Rona Mackay put to you the nature of the proposition, and you said that it is your job to make laws work, but you told me that you will not do that if the bill is enacted by Parliament. That is quite a contradiction of what you said to me in your earlier answers.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

Could you explain to the committee the association鈥檚 understanding of the role of the Scottish Parliament in our constitutional structures?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

If Parliament supports the bill, it will make it the law of Scotland that there should, on a pilot basis, be judge-only trials for rape cases. That will be the law of Scotland. I am intrigued to understand on what basis your members have the right not to follow that law, when you have told the committee that it is the job of the legal profession to do its job in trials.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

I am interested, philosophically, in how members of the legal profession can, in essence, say that they will not follow the rule of law, if Parliament agrees to the legislation.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

You are picking and choosing what law you are going to follow, are you not, Mr Brown?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

You will understand my confusion here, Mr Brown. You have just said that there is a good reason for the rules that are in place for the faculty. The process is not concluded yet, but Parliament may well legislate for juryless trials in this bill. I want to understand what message the association鈥檚 stance will send to the wider public in Scotland, when members of the legal profession are not prepared to adhere to the rule of law, although you have told the committee that there is good reason for advocates to be under the obligation that they are under.