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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 8 August 2025
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

John Swinney

Does the Scottish Government believe that that type of notification is consistent with the intergovernmental frameworks that are supposed to operate between the four Administrations of the United Kingdom?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

John Swinney

What significance does the cabinet secretary attach to the provision in section 65(5), which specifies the necessity for written reasons to be provided by a presiding judge in such circumstances? It strikes me that such a provision provides some foundation for long-term developments in the approach to prosecuting sexual crime. There will, for everybody concerned, be a greater distillation of the analysis of the case and the evidence that can be scrutinised as a consequence of written reasons being produced by a presiding judge in those circumstances.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

John Swinney

I will continue with the same line of argument or discussion. I was particularly struck, last week, by the comments of the Lord Advocate when she said:

“I consider that the changes that are proposed will make it more difficult to get a conviction in the type of cases that we are talking about.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 31 January 2024; c 12.]

The bill in front of us has the objective of ensuring that we get better outcomes in relation to prosecution and conviction for sexual crimes and that the situation that the Lord Advocate expressed concern about does not materialise. I am very concerned that the abolition of the not proven verdict has been linked to the questions of jury size and simple majority, and I would like to explore that further.

The not proven verdict—which Eamon Keane and Professor Leverick from the University of Glasgow helpfully explained to us—and the not guilty verdict amount to the same thing. We have to be blunt about that point. I would like to understand why there is a need for us to undertake any compensatory changes in relation to jury size and the majority that is required if the verdict that we propose to abolish in the bill amounts to the same as a not guilty verdict.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

John Swinney

The difficulty that I have with all of that relates to the fine judgments that the cabinet secretary talked about. Cabinet secretary, you have made it clear that there must be balance and fairness to all parties. However, when I read the Lord Advocate’s evidence, I am worried that, as a consequence of that change, there is a risk of imbalance in relation to complainants compared to where we are today. The whole purpose of the legislation is to address the fact that none of us is happy about where we are today.

There are questions about the relationship that has been constructed in the legislation. I hear the background evidence for why it is so, but the Government needs to explore whether there is sufficiently compelling evidence of the need for a compensatory action in relation to jury size and composition, given that the not proven verdict amounts to the same as a not guilty verdict. I encourage the Government to further consider whether the evidence exists to substantiate that position.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

John Swinney

Katy Clark referred to a number of issues about the conduct of trials that were raised with us by victims during our evidence taking. A point to which Katy Clark did not refer, but I certainly will, was the conduct of the defence. An interesting point in the evidence that we heard from Simon Di Rollo was his belief that, if a judge presided with no jury, the tone and atmosphere of the court would become less prone to theatrics, with a more considered focus on the evidence. Does the cabinet secretary believe that that is an important consideration in addressing the experiences of complainants? Will that enable them to have confidence that the conduct of a trial in a judge-only pilot will most definitely be trauma informed and will perhaps provide a greater opportunity to consider dispassionately the evidence that is put in front of the court?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

I am happy to wait.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

Thank you for that answer. Does the association acknowledge that the Scottish Parliament has the constitutional power to legislate on the issues that are in the bill?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

Does the association believe in the rule of law?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

Surely there is an obligation on the legal profession in its entirety. The committee has heard evidence from the Faculty of Advocates that it has no right of discretion in the handling of cases. However, I am interested in what the stance that the association is taking will say to the wider audience in Scotland, and what it says about the legal profession—if the legal profession is not prepared to engage in what has been defined as the law of Scotland.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

John Swinney

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