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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 August 2025
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

John Swinney

You have just made a very interesting observation about other very practical procedural approaches that can be taken. I was also interested in Mr Watt鈥檚 point about the nature of the Parole Board hearings being more inquisitorial, which relates to some of the questions that the committee has considered鈥攊ndeed, my colleague Katy Clark has led this very line of questioning鈥攚hether trauma-informed practice is almost incompatible with an adversarial court system. I do not take that view, because of solutions such as evidence by commission, but it opens up the necessity to think about the process of interrogation and scrutiny that goes on within the court system.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

John Swinney

My last question is for other members of the panel, and it follows on from Mr Fraser鈥檚 last point. Trauma-informed practice has been around for quite a while; it has been part of the thinking in the system, and a lot of good work has been undertaken on it. However, it just seems to be slow in getting embedded. Is it accepted that a level of priority has to be attached to this in order to change culture and attitude and turn legislation into practice to ensure that this can be realised? That question is perhaps for Sue Brookes.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

John Swinney

I am interested in Dr Bruce鈥檚 comment about everybody in all the different elements of the system needing to know what to do. That feels to me easier said than done. I am wholly supportive of the focus on trauma-informed practice, but I am not naive about the scale of the challenge in turning that into a practical experience that individuals will face. Can our witnesses help us with how we might see good practice turned into effects? It is all very well for Parliament to legislate for this, but it then has to happen in practical reality if it is to have any particular effect. Can our witnesses help us on that point?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

John Swinney

That is very helpful. The committee might benefit from seeing some further correspondence to help us to formulate a view on that point. I certainly do not want to see legislation emerging that is not effective for its purpose. If we do not get the foundations of it correct, we are better to hear that now rather than later on.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

John Swinney

An element of this will be about project planning and all that stuff, but there is a deeper element of cultural and attitudinal change. How do you manage and drive those two distinct elements of the practical project plan and the cultural and attitudinal change?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

John Swinney

Thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

John Swinney

Would you allow me to ask one question of Chief Superintendent Frew in the light of what has just been said there? I was struck by how you articulated that point about somebody being released through the parole system. However much you engage with people, it will be a traumatic event. A lot of what we are talking about is trying to reduce the effect of that trauma. Is that a fair representation of the point that you have just made?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

John Swinney

In trying to work out what the Crown contributes towards the delivery of trauma-informed practice, is it part of the Crown鈥檚 thinking that it must be constantly looking for ways in which it can adapt or reform the whole process of preparing for prosecution, to try to minimise that effect?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

John Swinney

You say that the conversations happen, but people do not have the thinking space to think differently. I have to say that I am not persuaded by that argument鈥攑eople will always be busy. I am trying to probe whether serious heavy thinking is going on about changing the model. This is not just about you. I am a huge admirer of what you do and the emphasis and focus on prevention, but I accept that, without tilting the balance more in favour of prevention, we will not get more prevention. I will not sit here and say that there is a pot of money somewhere else, because I know full well that there ain鈥檛.

I am interested in how that focused and hard discussion can happen to realign budgets and approaches to shift the focus of our system away from picking up the pieces鈥攚hich we do in a lot of cases鈥攁nd towards avoiding the person being broken in the first place.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

John Swinney

That is helpful鈥攖hank you.