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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 13 August 2025
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

What is the month during the year when the inflation rate for the private prison contracts is set?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

Essentially, the private sector contracts were inflation proofed at the time of the agreement of the contracts. What is the risk transfer involved in that, whereby the private sector is protected from the rampant inflation that the public sector faces?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

That is helpful. Thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

So is this the moment for the Government to be bold in the challenge that it puts in front of a range of organisations鈥攁ll of whom have been in front of this committee asking for more money鈥攖o say that we must shift our focus, because we cannot go on like this?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

Finally, if better outcomes are being achieved, is there an argument for money to be allocated to other purposes as a result, instead of its being argued that the money allocated to a particular organisation or policy area can be increased only because it was argued for in the pre-budget process?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

I will move on to another aspect. I was very struck by the detail that you placed on the record a moment ago regarding your experience in your professional life of the size of the prison population and where it is now. Making a rough calculation of the financial difference in the budgetary costs of accommodating that larger number of prisoners, I estimate that it must come in at something in the order of 拢90 million. It strikes me that that scale of additional financial pressure to be managed by the Scottish budget creates conditions in which the Scottish Government, the judiciary, community justice services and diversionary activity services should be absolutely focused on maximising the opportunities to avoid incarceration if it is safe for that option to be taken. Are all those players engaged in that dialogue? Are they all pointing in the same direction?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

I take it that those provisions are built into the contract at the point of negotiation.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

The nuance that I am trying to get across is whether the skills that Police Scotland requires for the policing challenge of today are best served by a discussion about the number of police officers that we have available to us.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

The long and the short of it is that the Scottish Prison Service, finding itself in a position to deliver capital projects in the aftermath of Covid, is stung by the combination of an intensely competitive marketplace because of the backlog of construction projects; supply chain costs increases, which are fuelled by Brexit and the loss of freedom and movement and the increase in fuel costs, all of which are beyond the control of the Scottish Prison Service; and the challenges of securing an appropriate workforce to deliver such projects. That is the context in which you are trying to rejuvenate your estate.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

John Swinney

It is very obvious that there is intense financial pressure on the Government and on public services after austerity, Brexit and the spiralling punitive impact of inflation, and I am certainly not underestimating the financial pressures on the Government. In that context, it strikes me that the comments that you have put on the record about the importance of picking up the pace on preventative services are absolutely critical. To all intents and purposes, it looks as though the Government is in a bit of a bind with a rising prison population, because that is a more expensive problem to service than putting in place preventative services, which are much more affordable and, in some circumstances, produce better outcomes.

What impetus is being given across Government to make the shift into preventative services that the cabinet secretary has highlighted? I recognise that this is not just a justice compartment issue, but a wider issue across Government. Is the cabinet focusing its discussions on how a shift might be made in order to reduce the higher-cost custodial service that is being supported, with greater priority being allocated to preventative interventions?