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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 9 August 2025
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

John Swinney

I just want to carry on with that line of discussion with Mr Macleod. One of the fundamental conclusions emerging from the evidence is that, whichever bit of this Rubik’s cube you move around, there will be implications for other bits of the Rubik’s cube. We are trying to feel our way towards where the right balance lies in protecting the process of justice. I am interested in the extent to which you can illuminate our discussions with where you think the greatest risks lie in changing the existing arrangements. We do not want to end up in a worse position; clearly, we want to end up in a better position.

I am keen to explore where that all rests, given the key factors that we have to bear in mind in what might change and what might produce different outcomes from those that we currently have in the criminal justice system.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

John Swinney

My final question is on the vexed question that you put in front of us about a seven to five majority for a guilty verdict that then leads to an acquittal. In the other jurisdictions with which we are often compared, where you might have an eight to four or a nine to three guilty verdict leading to an acquittal, to what degree is there public concern about such a result?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

John Swinney

Okay.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

John Swinney

If we were to address Pauline McNeill’s point about the perennial discussion of the not proven verdict, it might help us to understand exactly what “not proven” means. I am struck by the reference in the faculty’s written submission, which describes not proven as a “measured means of acquittal.” I would be grateful for an explanation of the thinking behind that description of the not proven verdict. What does it actually mean?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

John Swinney

A matter of emphasis about what?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

John Swinney

There is probably another sentence that goes with that that is about the interpretation of a not proven verdict. In the circumstances in which the Crown has been deemed to have failed to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt and the jury is unconvinced that the individual is not guilty, does it suggest that they are somehow—forgive my colloquialism—sort of guilty?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

John Swinney

A judge, however, in answering a jury’s question about the difference between the two verdicts will say, “There is no difference”. Am I correct?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

John Swinney

Mr Murray, the Scottish Solicitors Bar Association’s written submission states:

“a juror may think that the accused is guilty but be unsure as to whether or not the Crown have proven that beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is this lack of assurance as to guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, alongside a belief that an accused may not be innocent, that requires there to be a third option.”

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

John Swinney

That suggests to me that there is some residual doubt about the accused, given that—to go back to the point that Mr Renucci made a moment ago—a judge, in answering the question, will say that there are two types of acquittal.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

John Swinney

Is the point that it leaves people feeling differently about the verdict accepted?