łÉČËżěĘÖ

Skip to main content
Loading…

Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Filter your results Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 9 August 2025
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 1467 contributions

|

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 November 2021

John Swinney

Every three weeks, we have to consider whether it remains proportionate to have the scheme. We retain the issue under active review, and we will consider it again before 16 November.

We are not dealing with a fixed situation; we are dealing with the fact that the case load changes frequently. As I said in one of my earlier answers, yesterday’s numbers are very unsettling to ministers. I have not seen today’s numbers—it is a bit early for that—but we will be watching closely. The briefing that the chief medical officer gave to the Cabinet on Tuesday showed that we have been at a high stable level for a few weeks, but the numbers have begun to tick up again over the past seven days, compared with the numbers over the previous seven days. We will be mindful of that when considering whether we have the right measures in place.

Obviously, the COP26 summit is taking place and there are a lot of people there. A lot of people have come into the country for the summit. Therefore, as we have flagged up to Parliament already, there is the possibility of a rise in infection rates over the autumn or winter—whatever we are in just now—which might put further strain on the system. We have to be mindful of the fact that we are dealing with a moving picture on the data.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 November 2021

John Swinney

Mr Rowley makes an absolutely fair point, and I have not in any way tried to dismiss it. Indeed, going back to what I said in response to Mr Whittle and Mr Mason, if we find ourselves in the next few weeks with a rising prevalence of the virus and greater pressure on the national health service than we are already experiencing—it is under colossal pressure just now, as Mr Rowley and I have had exchanges about in the chamber—we might have to take stronger measures, which might apply greater mandatory force.

We are saying to business organisations, transport providers, various public authorities and all sorts of organisations: “You need to get folk to wear face coverings and observe social distancing. You need to do the baseline stuff, because, if you do not, we will end up with more significant restrictions.”

I do not want the committee to take from me any message other than that the Government is wrestling with that dilemma. We want to avoid having to put in place more restrictions but, if we have to do that, we will, because we have a public duty to protect members of the public.

10:00  

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 November 2021

John Swinney

I acknowledge that the whole system is under pressure. I am not sitting here trying to deny that. Ultimately, it comes back to the fact that, in a variety of different settings, while the Government is trying to do as much as it can, we do not have enough people available to deliver the healthcare that we require.

I will come back to talk about the availability of people because of free movement of the population. We have lost that. We have lost people who have left our country who were offering social care services. They have gone, because of Brexit and the loss of free movement. The workforce has been thinned down because of that—it is a hard reality. We are trying to recruit more people, which is why the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Sport has announced enhancements to social care remuneration, and it is why we have expanded the resources available for social care services.

We entirely accept the point that Mr Rowley is making: that, if somebody cannot be supported in their home, they will end up in some form of healthcare setting. It might not be necessary for them to be there, because they could be perfectly well supported at home. However, if they do not have a care package at home, they cannot be properly supported at home.

I think we are in violent agreement here.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 November 2021

John Swinney

I do not think it is both; I think it is one or the other—but it applies to a broader range of venues than our scheme. Ours applies to quite a limited range of venues, but in Wales, from my recollection, theatres and cinemas are included, and some hospitality as well.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 November 2021

John Swinney

That is for the simple reason that Professor Leitch gave, which is that immunity does not last forever whether you get it because you have contracted Covid or because you have had the vaccine. When we look at the serious health implications of Covid for individuals, the Government has a duty to do all that it can in the circumstances to protect the health of the public. That requires us to take the steps that we take.

If Mr Fairlie’s constituent is suggesting that we should let people get Covid, as I think he is, does that mean that we have learned nothing from the past 18 months? Have we literally learned absolutely nothing? On Tuesday afternoon, I sat with the families who have lost loved ones in care homes who are contributing to the thinking that the Government is putting into the terms of reference for the Covid inquiry and literally, literally—

Actually, the best thing to do on vaccine hesitancy is probably to get the people who are vaccine hesitant to have a conversation with the bereaved relatives who have lost loved ones in care homes. In my role as a minister, I sit through many tough conversations and that was a tough one on Tuesday, believe you me. Perhaps folk should listen to that.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 November 2021

John Swinney

I will take away the point about data on children and long Covid, and I will advise the committee on whether there is any data that could be shared in that respect. Obviously, we will have to consider issues around data protection in that respect, but I will consider that and write to the committee on that point.

I recognise the significance of the point about ventilation. That is an issue that I wrestled with extensively when I was Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills, and my successor has been working with the Covid-19 education recovery group to ensure that there is an appropriate approach to the delivery of ventilation interventions by local authorities in schools around the country.

The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills has written to the Education, Children and Young People Committee with an update on the extent of the measures that have been taken to improve ventilation in schools and on the inspection regime that has been put in place. We have required local authorities to undertake extensive assessments of ventilation interventions, and that work has been reported on to that committee.

Much of the emphasis has been on two things: first, on ensuring that we have all the necessary and appropriate data on the assessments that have been made; and secondly, on ensuring that changes can be made to the school estate to enable appropriate ventilation arrangements to be put in place. The Government has, of course, funded the approaches that are being taken by local authorities.

We have to consider a whole range of different measures. The member of the public who raised the question is concerned about the wellbeing of children in schools. That concern is shared by ministers—hence the decision that ministers took, which has not been universally supported, to maintain use of face coverings by pupils in certain circumstances. That has been an important protection to maintain in trying to suppress spread of the virus within the school estate. Ventilation is another aspect of the baseline measures that we can all take to tackle the situation.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 November 2021

John Swinney

No, it is not a disaster in any shape or form. Mr Fraser is completely wrong to characterise the scheme as being just about boosting vaccination levels. That is just one of its purposes.

Perhaps I can provide Mr Fraser with some data. As of 1 September, 53 per cent of the 18 to 29 population group, which I think we would all accept is the most important as far as the Night Time Industries Association is concerned, had had both doses of the vaccine. Shortly thereafter, the Government announced that it would embark on the approach. Then, on 1 October, the figure for both doses had risen to 64 per cent, and on 1 November, to 68 per cent. There has been a sizeable increase in the level of vaccination.

The scheme’s other objectives include reducing the risk of transmission, reducing the risk of serious illness and death, allowing high-risk settings to continue to operate as an alternative to closure, and increasing vaccination uptake. Those are the four bullet points with regard to the scheme. Taking each measure in turn, I point out that the Government’s priorities are to suppress transmission; reduce the risk of serious illness and death, which is one of the scheme’s objectives; allow high-risk settings to continue to operate as an alternative to closure, which, again, is sustained by the scheme; and increase vaccination uptake, evidence of which I have already put on the record. As I have said to the convener, what I cannot do is compartmentalise something or ascribe everything; the scheme is part of the mix that we have in place. I think that the scheme is delivering a positive benefit in suppressing the virus.

On errors in vaccination certification, I have accepted all along that, in administering something of the order of 8 million or 9 million doses of vaccine, you are bound to have errors. However, even with the data that the BBC has reported this morning, we are talking about a very, very small proportion of the number of vaccinations. In Scotland, as in many other countries, the vaccination certification scheme is contributing to the basket of measures that are necessary to deal with a pandemic that continues to pose a serious threat to the population’s wellbeing.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 November 2021

John Swinney

That issue is causing me some concern, and I intend to investigate it after the meeting. I have only just become aware of the information that the BBC published this morning.

My letter to the committee is based on the advice that I took at a given moment. I am the author of the letter, so I take responsibility for its contents. I am not concerned about the part of annex A of the letter in which I talked about the

“Number of people who have reported difficulties in accessing the COVID status app”.

I do not think that that is in any way contradicted by the data from the BBC this morning. However, on the final part of annex A, on the

“Number of people who have reported inaccuracies with the information contained in their vaccination record”,

as I have said to the committee, I am concerned by the fact that data is not currently available. I am exploring that point as we speak—or I would be if I was not here. It is being inquired about on my behalf.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 November 2021

John Swinney

The circumstances in which vaccination certificates are required for entry are rather limited—late-night premises with music that sell alcohol, unseated indoor events with 500 or more people, unseated outdoor events with 4,000 or more people and any event with more than 10,000 people. If people want to go to a mass event such as a Scotland rugby match or a large football match, vaccination certification will be required, because it is an effective way of trying to suppress the virus and improve vaccine uptake.

I accept the obligation on Government to make sure that we provide the highest quality information about the rationale for why it is in an individual’s best interests to be vaccinated, and our clinical colleagues support that argument extremely well by giving dispassionate clinical information to members of the public to aid them in that judgment. I understand that people will have hesitancy in some circumstances, but all that we can do is provide the best clinical advice, which many of us have followed and which we encourage other citizens to follow.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 4 November 2021

John Swinney

I can understand that happening in a society where many organisations want to play their part in suppressing the virus. We are very fortunate that many organisations, businesses and institutions in the country recognise the serious threat that the virus poses to human health and want to play their part. I can understand why some of them, without a requirement from the Government, want individuals who come to particular events to show their certification.

Organisations need to make a judgment about whether that is leading to any form of exclusivity, if they are interested in wider participation. I am sure that people at the event that Mr Mason will be attending will be interested in hearing from a range of diverse voices. Organisations have to make that judgment, but I can understand why they want to play their part and to do all that they can to suppress the spread of the virus.