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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 August 2025
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statements and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 2 December 2021

John Swinney

There is no issue regarding vaccine capacity. Obviously, we have to go through the process of vaccination in an orderly fashion to ensure that it is done efficiently. We have already expanded significantly vaccine availability as part of the programme.

The change in JCVI guidance on Monday increased the number of people who are eligible for a booster vaccination. If memory serves me right, an additional 1.3 million individuals immediately became eligible. Colleagues will understand that we cannot vaccinate 1.3 million people in one day, so we have to increase capacity to move through that as efficiently as possible. Work is under way to ensure that we satisfy the understandable demand that there will be in the community.

Prior to the new JCVI guidance, we were confident that all eligible individuals would be able to secure their booster vaccination before the turn of the year. We are confident that, with the new guidance in place, we will be able to reach that point by the end of January. There will be a period during which people will have to wait some weeks to secure their booster jag, but they will certainly get it earlier than would have been the case in other circumstances, such as if they had to wait 24 weeks after their second vaccination.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statements and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 2 December 2021

John Swinney

I will bring in Professor Leitch on part of that question, because we will get into the assessment of clinical risk. I will explain the thinking behind the programme.

This year, we took a decision to vaccinate more people than ever before for flu, and we had a commitment to administer the booster jags for a range of population groups. Our judgment was that the most effective and efficient way of doing that was to combine, as far as possible, the flu and Covid booster vaccination programmes to ensure that we were using resources wisely and calling in people when they could get two doses together. I had my flu and booster jags on Sunday, in a very efficient programme in Blairgowrie town hall.

10:45  

The programme is designed to enable us to make as much progress as possible, but there will be some people who will get a flu jag slightly later in the year than they would have done under a stand-alone programme. Professor Leitch can set out the clinical issues around that.

We are trying to maximise the protection that is available to individuals and within society by having as efficient a programme as we can. I accept that some individuals might get a flu vaccination slightly later than they would ordinarily have received it.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statements and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 2 December 2021

John Swinney

We are awaiting advice on that point from the JCVI, which has been exploring the issue—

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statements and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 2 December 2021

John Swinney

No, convener—I am satisfied with what I have said.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statements and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 2 December 2021

John Swinney

It is but, to go back to my two key words—proportionate and precautionary—it is also a recognition that, in the light of omicron, it is necessary to take the precautionary stance of moving to an earlier time for the booster jag. That strikes me as a rational decision for the JCVI to arrive at.

Perhaps Professor Leitch will want to add something.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statements and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 2 December 2021

John Swinney

I think that members of Parliament have wrestled with that question for a considerable time. Indeed, Mr Fraser and a number of other members have been pressing the Government to take that step for some time.

The Government wanted to have a scheme in place that would help to boost vaccine take-up, which is why we resisted that move to begin with—it does not suit the purpose of our scheme. For completeness, however, I put on the record that, at the same time, we indicated the risk that Mr Fraser puts to me.

There is a risk here. I cannot deny that. However, the approach is part of the culture that we have to take forward if we are serious as a society about resisting the spread of the virus. We need to test ourselves and follow what the one or two red lines tell us when the test is complete. I encourage members of the public to take the process deadly seriously, and I know that many are doing so. There is very high demand for lateral flow tests, thankfully.

I return to the questions that the convener put to me at the beginning about how seriously people are taking the testing approach. Testing is a very important tool in stopping the circulation of the virus, and it would not be right for somebody to report a test result that was inaccurate. If Mr Fairlie will forgive me, I am not sure that it is for me to decide what is fraudulent and what is not, but that would not be the right thing to do, because it would undermine the purpose of the scheme and the taking of the test. I encourage members of the public to test and to report the findings accurately.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statements and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 2 December 2021

John Swinney

It is everybody. Personally, I am now undertaking lateral flow tests much more frequently. I was doing them twice a week, but I am now doing them much more frequently because of the degree of interaction that I have in the course of my work. I have no social life, but—

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statements and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 2 December 2021

John Swinney

It would be best if Professor Leitch responds to those.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statements and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 2 December 2021

John Swinney

With a programme of such magnitude, there will be a phenomenal number of operational issues. We must bear in mind the numbers that we are talking about. More than 10 million vaccinations have now been undertaken. What has been achieved in the programme has been a colossal undertaking. I pay tribute to the staff who are delivering the vaccinations and those who are organising the programme, because it is not a simple logistical exercise.

Mr Rowley raised several points that need to be addressed, the first of which relates to the tweet that he mentioned. We have reiterated the guidance to health boards, and it is important that that guidance is applied in all scenarios and circumstances on the ground. I will take away the fact that an example has been raised with me where that message has clearly not reached all the distribution points for the vaccination programme. Obviously, there has been a change of circumstances and the advice is relatively new, and it takes time for those messages to be put across. However, I will make sure that the issue that Mr Rowley raised is taken up.

The second point concerns the capacity questions. When I answered Murdo Fraser, I said that there was certainly capacity in terms of the availability of vaccines. There is adequate provision of vaccines; the question is about the best means of administering the programme at a local level. Of course, there is a range of options for how we might go about doing that. There are probably three main options: a drop-in service; self-selection of appointment via the online portal; and setting appointments via letters from health boards.

There are upsides and downsides to each option. For example, sending out letters gives an order and an organisation to the programme, but the downside is that it takes time to get the infrastructure in place to administer and distribute the letters, and there will be a reasonable level of did-not-attends.

The portal option, which we are using, can give people a choice about when their appointment is. I was able to choose to go to Blairgowrie town hall on Sunday morning, which suited me down to the ground, and I have now had my vaccination. However, for some people, digital access is a challenge and other people might find that they cannot find an appointment that suits their choices.

The drop-in option, as Mr Rowley has recounted, can be quite challenging if too many people decide to drop in at the same time. The vaccination centre in Kirkcaldy was quiet this morning, as we heard from the member of the public whose tweet Mr Rowley quoted, but the vaccination centre in Dunfermline that Mr Rowley went to on Tuesday night was busy. The smoothing of demand is difficult with a system that has only drop-in appointments.

We have tried to opt for a means of balancing out the best of those options as far as possible. When I went on Sunday morning for my vaccination, the couple after me were drop-in candidates. They were not in a different queue; they were right behind me and they got taken right after me.

We are trying to work through every possible practical permutation to maximise access. Obviously, if the 1.3 million people who are now eligible for a vaccine decide to drop in for a vaccination today, there will not be adequate places. We are therefore trying to balance the vaccination programme over the country with a number of mechanisms to enable us to maximise participation in it.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statements and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 2 December 2021

John Swinney

We have a mass vaccination programme, which is under way. We are distributing in excess of 60,000 vaccinations daily in Scotland. We are the most vaccinated part of the United Kingdom, with the highest levels for first, second, third and booster vaccinations. We have a comprehensive mass vaccination programme.

The Government is looking at the situation from health board to health board, and the health boards have submitted plans to intensify the vaccination programme. Dialogue continues between the Government and health boards to maximise that capacity. The programme must take place in a variety of geographies and scenarios across the country. I assure Mr Rowley that we are trying to maximise the capacity of the vaccination programme, but he must accept that there is a challenge.

The two pieces of information that Mr Rowley has just given the committee highlight that challenge: before 11 this morning it was quite quiet at the Kirkcaldy vaccination centre, but last night, between five and eight o’clock at the Dunfermline vaccination centre it was very busy. That illustrates the challenge of operating such a programme. We are providing capacity. In Kirkcaldy this morning, drop-in appointments could be fulfilled because it was quiet, but in Dunfermline on a Tuesday night that becomes more problematic. I assure Mr Rowley that every step is being taken to maximise the programme.

Professor Leitch has been involved in work to expand the pool of individuals coming forward to deliver the vaccination. I will ask him to say a bit about that in a moment. The more that we draw in people from within the health service from other disciplines to administer the vaccination programme, the more that we will have to address the issue of what other services the national health service can deliver. If, to deliver the vaccination programme, we draw in healthcare staff who usually deliver elective activity, we will obviously reduce the capacity for the elective work of the national health service. I know how much it matters to the public and to members of the Parliament that we do as much elective work as we can. Jason Leitch might need to get more detail on that.