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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 7 August 2025
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

The problem that I have with that is that, last week, we had six witnesses in front of us who had all been involved in sexual offences cases, and they would not say that that was their experience.

Let me place a quote from Lady Dorrian on the record. I thought that it was an incredibly powerful quote from her appearance before the committee on 10 January. She said:

“We have, of course, managed to bring in the changes in the way in which juries are directed and so on, but even if they were brought in rapidly, they are still being done in a piecemeal way. They are not being done in a principled way, with the underpinning of a whole court that is dedicated to trauma-informed practices.

One of the things that we said in the report was that, if we do not seize the opportunity to create the culture change from the ground up that Mr Swinney spoke about, there is every risk that, in 40 years, my successor and your successors will be in this room having the same conversation.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 10 January 2024; c 22-23.]

I found that to be a powerful comment because it addressed directly the argument about piecemeal change that we are wrestling with—that is what I have heard—versus a substantial departure from some of the traditional norms that Sheila Webster talked about, which can be very off-putting to individuals involved in the judicial system.

I am keen to understand the reluctance to fully absorb and incorporate the ground-up culture change that Lady Dorrian talked about. I worry that Parliament might legislate in one part of the bill for trauma-informed practice, but not see it happen in courts throughout the country.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Thank you.

I was interested in Professor Munro’s comment a moment ago that having juryless trials can affect the tone of a case. I am particularly interested in that point. Could you perhaps elaborate on that, Professor Munro? What particular elements of a judge-only trial could be enhanced or developed to enable proper and fair justice for all parties to be better assured than it is under our current arrangements?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Can you pause there, Mr Di Rollo? The contrast that you have just drawn for the committee—that the difference in tone and approach is in being impressionistic versus analytical—is fundamental to our consideration of what the arguments are for a single-judge trial.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Thank you. Professor Thomas, would you like to reflect on that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Good morning. I do not know whether all the witnesses were here for the previous evidence session with the legal academics, but I want to highlight one of the points that I explored with Professor Munro. She made a remark about how judge-only trials could affect the tone of a case. I am particularly interested in that point. Does the panel believe that there is a problem with the tone of sexual crime cases in Scotland today? Maybe Mr Lenehan could start on that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

When reading the submissions, all that I am seeing are all the reasons for not doing something. The committee must address the reforms, which, by necessity, are significant. If we take a piecemeal approach, which, if I may say so, is what the submissions seem to me to be suggesting should happen, we will be back having this conversation in 10, 20 or 30 years’ time. Do you see my dilemma?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

John Swinney

Please do.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

John Swinney

There is a big challenge for the committee here, because another committee of the Parliament, of which my colleague Mr MacGregor is a member, is examining the issues around legal services regulation and, from what I have heard about those proceedings, everyone is holding up their hands in horror at the poor quality of such regulation. I put that point to the Law Society of Scotland and the Faculty of Advocates when they came here. It seems that that issue cannot be confronted because it is too unacceptable. Do we need to confront those issues?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

John Swinney

So an accountability mechanism needs to be injected into the proceedings.

This might be a question for Kate Wallace and Emma Bryson. It is clear from looking at the terms of reference of the victims commissioner that they would not be able to effect any of what we have just talked about; they might be able to comment on it, but they would not be able to effect it. Do you have any reflections on what questions that poses for the committee about what is required to make sure that the triumvirate of cultural change, legislative change and regulatory change can be delivered to make sure that we deliver the comprehensive strategic change that we all want?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

John Swinney

It does sound bizarre, but it is also a powerful explanation of how you did not feel central to the case, which is a point well made.