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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 August 2025
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Displaying 1428 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

I do. I reiterate that the bill does not change any of that.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

In those circumstances, the simplest and best way is, in essence, to take the same approach and to submit an application under the same process. The offence is about knowingly making a false statutory declaration. In other words, if at the time of making a statutory declaration, you intended to live permanently in your acquired gender, you would not be committing an offence if, for whatever reason, your intention to do so subsequently changed at some point in your life.

You can draw a comparison with marriage, which involves a lifelong commitment and a certain intention at the time. Sometimes, though, that relationship comes to an end. That does not make the marriage itself false; it is just that someone has reached a different point in their life.

I think that that is the simplest way of enabling someone who changes their view at some point in their life to go through the process. I should say that it does not happen very often; Peter Hope-Jones might have been about to say this, but the evidence from other countries is that a very small number of people do it. We are not talking about lots of people.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

The requirement in the bill is that the applicant must be the subject of a Scottish birth or adoption register entry or ordinarily resident in Scotland, as you said. Applicants will have to make a statutory declaration to that effect. As you will know, “ordinarily resident” means that the person lives in Scotland with only short periods away. Residence must be voluntary, for settled purposes and lawful. That is a common law concept, which is routinely used in statute; it is not particular to the bill but is understood in many statutes.

It is worth reiterating that, if someone knowingly makes a false statutory declaration that they are ordinarily resident in Scotland, they could be committing a criminal offence. We will work with National Records of Scotland to provide guidance to applicants, to ensure that they fully understand that.

I noted the evidence from the Scottish Human Rights Commission. Your point about cross-border impacts takes us back to the conversation about what a GRC does and does not do, because someone has the same protection under the gender reassignment characteristic whether or not they have a GRC. If they go from Scotland to England, they will have the same protections in relation to their gender reassignment in school, work and medical contexts, whether or not they have a GRC.

For all those reasons, I do not foresee tourism—I think that that is the word you used—being an issue.

12:00  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

The whole area of annual reporting was initially driven by concerns—to which we responded—about being able to track and monitor the number of GRCs being issued. That was the starting point, but I am certainly open minded as to whether such reporting would go further. It would have to be proportionate and gather things that could be gathered, so we would have to think about that, but I am certainly open to suggestions about what else might be reported annually. In Ireland, there is annual reporting of the numbers and in a few other areas.

I am also open minded on a post-legislative review, if that is to be a committee recommendation. We would need time for the new system to bed in. There will inevitably be a bit of a spike in the numbers, as there was in Ireland in the first couple of years, as people who were already living in their acquired gender wanted to go forward with their GRCs—it plateaued after that. I suspect that it would probably be the same here, but it would be useful to have the numbers through annual reporting. If a post-legislative review wanted to gather information more broadly, we would need a bit of time to set up systems to gather information on elements that it might be helpful to review.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

People have been able to change their sex through the 2004 act since it came in. They were already able to do that, so any prisoners we are talking about have already done that through the 2004 act, because this bill is not in place. If any of the people whom we are talking about have a GRC, they will have one through the existing 2004 legislation.

The point that I am making is that, for the Scottish Prison Service, if someone has a GRC it is not a pass for a trans woman into the female estate or for a trans man into the male estate. What matters is the risk assessment of that individual, and not just whether they pose a threat to other people but whether they are at risk themselves. You could clearly see in the case of trans men, in particular, why that might be the case, which is why 75 per cent of trans men are held in the female estate.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

That is really a matter for the committee, not me. How the committee operates its business and the time that you allocate for the bill is a matter for yourselves, not me.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

Living in an acquired gender generally means living your daily life in a gender that is different from your gender as recorded at birth. In the context of the bill, that is the gender in which a person is living when they make an application.

It is important to recognise that living in the acquired gender is an existing requirement under the 2004 act. I do not think that that causes widespread confusion among applicants currently, so we do not envisage that that will be the case with the bill.

It is important to say that the requirement is not about dressing or looking a certain way; it is about the ways in which a person might demonstrate their lived gender to others. Ultimately, interpretation is—

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

Yes, I can. I was just going to say that examples include consistently using titles and pronouns in line with the acquired gender; updating official documents, such as a driving licence or passport; updating utility bills or bank accounts; updating the gender marker on official documents, such as a driving licence or passport; describing themselves and being described by others, in written or other communication, in line with the acquired gender; and using a name that is associated with the acquired gender. Of course, a change of name is a personal choice and not a requirement, but it is an example.

The gender recognition panel that currently exists—it will no longer, if the bill is passed—advises in its guidance that examples might include a person having changed the gender marker on their passport and driving licence, or that their friends, family and employer know their gender.

I hope that that is—

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

First, it will be for the other parts of the UK to decide on their own systems, and the UK Government’s recognition of Scottish GRCs will be a matter for it to consider.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

There are some fundamental rights that will remain the same—rights that are enshrined under the Equality Act 2010 and apply to people whether or not they have a GRC. Those would be everyday things such as people’s rights at work and in any interactions with public bodies. Those remain the same whether someone has a GRC or not, because they are protected under the 2010 act.

I will ask Peter Hope-Jones to pick up on the specifics.