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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 June 2025
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Displaying 1428 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

I think that, for consistency and fairness, the reflection period should be the same. From memory, I think that the children’s commissioner was probably against having a reflection period at all, but I also think that the commissioner would be quite firmly against having some differential in the reflection period.

If we agree that 16 and 17-year-olds should be able to obtain a gender recognition certificate through statutory declaration, those people should be treated as having the same maturity as everyone else has when it comes to the reflection period. Having said that, there will be the additional guidance and support structure around 16 and 17-year-olds. We think that that is the more appropriate additional support, which someone over the age of 18 might not require.

An issue of which we are mindful is people who are nearing the end of life. In those circumstances, three months could, frankly, be a long time. We are mindful of the importance for many people of their death certificate reflecting how they have lived their life. If the committee made a recommendation in that regard, I would be completely sympathetic to that.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

People have been able to change their sex through the 2004 act since it came in. They were already able to do that, so any prisoners we are talking about have already done that through the 2004 act, because this bill is not in place. If any of the people whom we are talking about have a GRC, they will have one through the existing 2004 legislation.

The point that I am making is that, for the Scottish Prison Service, if someone has a GRC it is not a pass for a trans woman into the female estate or for a trans man into the male estate. What matters is the risk assessment of that individual, and not just whether they pose a threat to other people but whether they are at risk themselves. You could clearly see in the case of trans men, in particular, why that might be the case, which is why 75 per cent of trans men are held in the female estate.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

That is really a matter for the committee, not me. How the committee operates its business and the time that you allocate for the bill is a matter for yourselves, not me.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

Living in an acquired gender generally means living your daily life in a gender that is different from your gender as recorded at birth. In the context of the bill, that is the gender in which a person is living when they make an application.

It is important to recognise that living in the acquired gender is an existing requirement under the 2004 act. I do not think that that causes widespread confusion among applicants currently, so we do not envisage that that will be the case with the bill.

It is important to say that the requirement is not about dressing or looking a certain way; it is about the ways in which a person might demonstrate their lived gender to others. Ultimately, interpretation is—

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

Yes, I can. I was just going to say that examples include consistently using titles and pronouns in line with the acquired gender; updating official documents, such as a driving licence or passport; updating utility bills or bank accounts; updating the gender marker on official documents, such as a driving licence or passport; describing themselves and being described by others, in written or other communication, in line with the acquired gender; and using a name that is associated with the acquired gender. Of course, a change of name is a personal choice and not a requirement, but it is an example.

The gender recognition panel that currently exists—it will no longer, if the bill is passed—advises in its guidance that examples might include a person having changed the gender marker on their passport and driving licence, or that their friends, family and employer know their gender.

I hope that that is—

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

First, it will be for the other parts of the UK to decide on their own systems, and the UK Government’s recognition of Scottish GRCs will be a matter for it to consider.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

There are some fundamental rights that will remain the same—rights that are enshrined under the Equality Act 2010 and apply to people whether or not they have a GRC. Those would be everyday things such as people’s rights at work and in any interactions with public bodies. Those remain the same whether someone has a GRC or not, because they are protected under the 2010 act.

I will ask Peter Hope-Jones to pick up on the specifics.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

I am aware that Shirley-Anne Somerville also undertook consultation and met a number of organisations. Peter Hope-Jones was closer to that process than I was, but I understand that the three-month reflection period was one of the areas that emerged from that. Peter can maybe say more about that in a second.

There has also been ample opportunity for written comments, all of which have been looked at and considered. I undertook a round of engagement once I came into the post and had got my head around the extent and detail of this complex area. I held personal meetings with organisations from both sides of the argument around the bill. One of the areas that I looked at in a lot of detail was whether the minimum age of applicants should be 18 or 16. I gave that a lot of consideration. I looked at all of the views on that and, as I said in my statement, the reforms are finely balanced because of the differing views. The commitment to annual reporting came directly out of that round of engagement with organisations, because I was being asked how we would know how many GRCs had been issued, whether there had been a spike, and what the pattern was. That was an absolutely fair point, so we agreed to put that in the annual reporting requirement.

The other area that was changed was the cost of applying. Some organisations in favour of the bill said that they thought that having a cost might be prohibitive to people, so we listened to them and we removed the cost on that basis. Those are two examples that came directly out of that round of consultation. Peter is best placed to talk about what happened before that, because obviously I was not in post then.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

Application for a GRC is still a very serious step to take: it is a statutory declaration, in which the person declares that they are going to live the rest of their life in that gender. The international evidence that has emerged shows that there is no evidence of changes in laws being misused by what you described as “bad-faith actors”. The evidence of the Scottish Human Rights Commission is very strong on that: it could find no evidence of the misuse of the process.

There are quite hefty penalties for misuse. As I set out in my opening remarks, someone who makes a false declaration will feel the full force of the law.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Shona Robison

We just need to understand what the EHRC’s concern is, because the rights of transgender people across the UK are enshrined in the Equality Act 2010, whether or not someone has a GRC. The fact that we are changing the process for obtaining a GRC does nothing to alter those fundamental rights that are enshrined in the 2010 act, so we do not understand the relevance, really. Those rights exist no matter what process a country has for obtaining a GRC.