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I am happy to continue the conversation, but it is important to recognise that some of the exceptions, protections and rights that are already the case are not changed at all by the bill. It is important to reiterate that for the record. For the sake of clarity, I am happy to discuss further with Pam Gosal whether anything more can be done on the issue.

What is important—

The guidance is already provided through the Equality and Human Rights Commission and through governing bodies. Mr Whittle is talking about two slightly different things. On the way in which a public body manages its spaces, there is guidance from the Equality and Human Rights Commission on the proportionality of who would be excluded from certain spaces in sports provision.

If you are talking about competition and athletes competing at whatever level, however, the guidance has to be specific to that sport. That is why we have seen sports governing bodies very publicly making those changes in the light of the evidence that they have gathered and research that they have done. Each sport is very different with regard to the physicality of athletes, so the guidance, as I have said, has to be specific to the sport.

Thinking about the guidance that sportscotland issued last year in Scotland, I cannot see how you can possibly legislate for every scenario and every sport in a bill that is about the process for obtaining a gender recognition certificate. That said, if the Equality and Human Rights Commission believes that guidance requires to be revised again in the light of the bill, we will of course work with it on that. However, the guidance is already there, and sports governing bodies are changing their policy in certain circumstances.

We have done so. Let me be absolutely clear: we have considered every single amendment. We have examined them and assessed whether they are required or not required, what their effect would be and any unintended consequences. We have done that for all of them—every single one of them.

For clarity and simplicity, having the protection or the catch-all clarity of Pam Duncan-Glancy’s amendment 37 offers the clearest way to say that, for the avoidance of doubt, there is no change to any aspects of the Equality Act 2010. To go further than that would actually introduce a lack of clarity. I hope that I could not have been any clearer in my answer to Daniel Johnson’s point regarding the exemptions, which will continue to apply.

Christine Grahame makes the important point that there has been cross-party support for aspects of various amendments, which is a good thing. I have said previously, have said today and will say again that my door remains open for further discussions in advance of stage 3. I feel, and I hope that others feel, that I have had constructive discussions, and where I have been able to support and work with people on amendments—

I welcome the conversations that I have had with Pam Duncan-Glancy about amendments that would require the statutory declaration to include confirmation that the applicant understands that making a false statutory declaration is an offence. It might be circular for the declaration about understanding that making a false declaration is an offence to then be subject to the offence provision itself, but I consider that Pam Duncan-Glancy’s amendment will be an additional measure in ensuring that the applicant is aware that making a false statutory declaration is an offence, just as the notary public or justice of the peace who is administering the statutory declaration is required to ensure that the person understands the contents of what they are signing. Therefore, I ask the committee to support amendment 122.

It is already an offence to knowingly make a false statutory declaration, with the maximum penalty for the offence being imprisonment for up to two years, an unlimited fine, or both. The offence provision in section 14 of the bill also already provides that an offence is made if the declaration or other information in an application

“is false in a material particular”,

and the position is the same for the existing offence.

The amendments that are proposed by Graham Simpson would require ministers to make regulations about what would constitute a false statutory declaration and the evidence that would be required. As the committee will be aware, prosecutorial policy is for the Lord Advocate rather than for ministers. As with any criminal offence, it would for the police and the procurator fiscal to demonstrate, and for the court to determine, whether an offence had been committed in any individual case.

Graham Simpson made reference to living in the acquired gender, but the point here is that there is no change to what living in an acquired gender means. It is exactly the same as it is under the 2004 act. The requirement is not about looking or dressing a certain way; it is about the ways in which a person might demonstrate their lived gender to others. In that respect, the bill does not change the position under the 2004 act, under which examples of appropriate evidence of living in the acquired gender include updating official documents, such as a driving licence or a passport, utility bills or bank accounts. A number of other examples are given in the 2004 legislation.

With all of that said, I urge the committee not to support amendments 22 and 28.

Amendments 2 to 17, in the name of Sue Webber, are obviously not in keeping with the general principles of the bill as agreed to at stage 1 by the majority of the committee and by a clear majority in Parliament, including members of all parties.

Amendment 26, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, which presumes that Sue Webber’s amendments will be agreed to, would remove the requirement for medical reports submitted to a gender recognition panel to include details of treatment that the applicant has undergone, is undergoing or has had prescribed or planned for them for the purpose of modifying sexual characteristics. The other requirements of the 2004 act that relate to medical reports would remain.

Rachael Hamilton asked a question about international evidence. The committee itself looked at that. One of the people who gave evidence was the United Nations independent expert on protection against violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. The expert gave evidence that some of the theoretical concerns that were raised during the adoption of those processes have not materialised in the numerous countries that have implemented similar systems. The committee’s stage 1 report noted that the majority of members recognised that

“when asked about evidence of abuse and concerns, no witness was able to provide concrete examples.”

In short, Parliament has shown its support for the principles and purpose of the bill, which, as the long title shows, aims

“to reform the grounds and procedure for obtaining gender recognition; and for connected purposes”.

I urge members to vote against these amendments.

I will take a moment to set out the process, as I have done in writing for the committee.

Before making an application to the registrar general for Scotland, a person must first make a statutory declaration. In that statutory declaration, the applicant must declare that they are aged at least 16; were born in, or are ordinarily resident in, Scotland; have lived in their acquired gender for at least the previous three months, or six months for 16 and 17-year-olds; and intend to live permanently in their acquired gender. A statutory declaration is an existing feature of the current process for obtaining legal gender recognition, and a feature that we are maintaining in our system.

A statutory declaration is a serious and significant matter. In Scotland, statutory declarations under the bill will be made in the presence of a notary public or a justice of the peace. Guidance on acting as a notary public is provided to solicitors by the Law Society of Scotland. The notary must be satisfied as to the identity of the applicant, based on evidence if the person is not known to them, and they must be satisfied that the applicant understands the contents of the statutory declaration. That could require photographic identification, such as a passport or a driving licence.

A statutory declaration is like an affidavit. It is a formal statement that something is true to the best of the knowledge of the person who is making the declaration. It is provided for by the long-standing Statutory Declarations Act 1835, and it is an accepted way of establishing facts in numerous official contexts.

It is a criminal offence to knowingly make a false statutory declaration or to provide false information in an application. The maximum penalty for those offences is imprisonment for up to two years or an unlimited fine—or, indeed, both.

Once a person has made the required statutory declaration, they must provide that to the registrar general when they make an application for a GRC, with all the safeguards associated with that stage.

I welcomed the discussion that I had with Michael Marra about his amendments. However, I consider that the statutory declaration is sufficient. Michael Marra’s amendments would not materially add to the requirement to make a statutory declaration; indeed, as others have said, they would be further barriers for a person accessing their rights, with a prescriptive list of recognised professions in amendment 48.

I have concerns about the countersigning requirement and how it might work in practice. For example, if an individual has been living in their acquired gender for a long time, that might require them to disclose their trans status to someone whom they have known for years who may be completely unaware of that.

I understand that applying for a passport involves a countersignatory process. However, applying for a passport does not involve making a statutory declaration. As I said, that statutory declaration could well require photographic identification, such as a passport or a driving licence.

Finally, the statutory declaration is clearly a higher threshold, given that criminal offences are associated with it.

Notaries public are quite often solicitors, and justices of the peace can sometimes be city councillors. They are well established in a number of pieces of legislation, and the Law Society of Scotland provides guidance to solicitors who act as notaries public.

Justices of the peace sometimes are city councillors, I think.

My officials tell me that that is correct.