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As I said in response to group 17, I agree that we should review the bill. In addition, the bill as introduced already includes a provision in section 15 under which annual reporting will be required, including on the number of people who apply for and obtain a GRC. The National Records of Scotland provides annual statistics and reports on other areas of civil registration, including marriages, civil partnerships, births and deaths, and the bill will require it to report annually on the processes around gender recognition certificates.

It is important that we carefully consider what it is possible and appropriate to collect information about. The list in amendment 147 is, I think, overly prescriptive, with the duty put on Scottish ministers rather than the registrar general for Scotland, who will be responsible for the processes. That said, although I would not support amendment 147 ahead of stage 3, I would want to consider whether it would be possible and appropriate to provide anything in it as part of the registrar general’s annual reporting duty. If Pam Duncan-Glancy is content not to press her amendment, I am prepared to work with her on that and, if we can, bring something back at stage 3.

I agree with Sarah Boyack that it is important to collect data and information about the impact of the act to ensure effective reporting, but, again, we need to consider what is possible and appropriate. Amendment 149 is very broad. As I have said, the bill is about reforming the process for obtaining a GRC, and you do not need a GRC to access gender identity healthcare. I am therefore not clear how that would work in practice. I cannot support amendment 149 at this stage, but I am happy to work with Sarah Boyack on some of the issues that she has raised.

The amendments raise some wider issues, too. I have written to Pam Duncan-Glancy, laying out in some detail the multi-agency public protection arrangements—or MAPPA—but if those who manage sex offenders are concerned that someone is trying to obtain a gender recognition certificate fraudulently, they will be able to prevent the certificate from being issued through the registrar general or, if it has already been issued, they can have it revoked. Essentially, the justice secretary will put in place a regulation to require someone on the register who is seeking to obtain a gender recognition certificate to first of all attend a police station and inform the police of their intention. Those are proportionate risk-based assessments. MAPPA works very well at risk assessing offenders, which gives us the assurance that, if there were bad actors, which I think was the phrase that Sarah Boyack used, those protections will help to ensure—

Last week, I mentioned that, in principle, I would support the amendment. It is important to emphasise that Jamie Greene’s amendment 133 applies to the obtaining of a GRC fraudulently. As the committee knows, the bill already includes offences of knowingly making a false statutory declaration or including other false information in a GRC application.

In my earlier response to Pam Duncan-Glancy, I said that I was happy to continue to discuss the art of the possible here, as long as proposals are proportionate and doable. Some of the numbers that we are talking about are tiny, and that is, in fact, one of the issues with regard to information being obtainable. However, as I have said to Pam Duncan-Glancy, I am happy to continue to have those discussions as we try to coalesce the various aspects to which I am sympathetic around a stage 3 amendment.

Okay. As I have said, I met the Faith & Belief Forum, which includes representatives of various faiths. Not every religious leader was at the forum; there were representatives appearing on behalf of religious groups. I am happy to come back to the member with more information about whom I met. It was a while ago now, so I cannot remember off the top of my head, but I can come back with information if the member finds it helpful.

The bill provides that the registrar general, with the consent of the Scottish ministers, can make regulations about the form and manner in which an application for a GRC is to be made; the form and manner in which a notice of confirmation is to be given; information or evidence to be included in an application for a GRC or a notice of confirmation; and other matters in connection with the making of an application for a GRC.

Regulations made under that section that contain a provision that adds to, replaces or omits any part of the text of an act are subject to the affirmative procedure. Otherwise, regulations made under the section are subject to the negative procedure. I note that the Parliament’s Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee approved the delegated powers in the bill at stage 1.

The form and manner of making an application and of giving a notice of confirmation will be relatively procedural matters. As such, the negative procedure is considered an appropriate use of the Parliament’s time. Making all regulations under the section subject to the affirmative procedure would, in my view, place a disproportionate burden on the committee, with a potential impact on the other work that the committee has to undertake. Of course, even with the negative procedure, the Parliament still has to scrutinise, consider and vote on regulations.

I heard the concerns that were raised with the committee at stage 1 about regulations to make provision for or about further information or evidence that might be included in an application for a GRC or a notice of confirmation. However, the provision will not allow a change to the criteria and grounds that are specified in the bill for a GRC to be granted. For example, the power would not allow regulations to be made to reintroduce a requirement for medical evidence.

The provision is intended to ensure that the smooth running of the process will not be frustrated if, in the light of experience in the future, it transpires that some additional information or evidence should be submitted with an application or a notice of confirmation. Also, of course, just because an instrument is negative, it does not mean that the committee would not still have an opportunity to scrutinise and consider it in the normal manner.

For those reasons, I cannot support amendment 153.

On the point about healthcare, as I said, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Humza Yousaf, has written to the committee to lay out in some detail the actions that are being taken. He has said that any changes that might be made to the delivery of healthcare services for the transgender community will take into account many of the reviews that have happened elsewhere, including the Cass review.

However, someone who goes for gender identity healthcare, for whatever purpose, does not need to have a gender recognition certificate, so we need to be careful that we do not conflate the two issues. I am happy to work further with Sarah Boyack on some of the data collection and information issues that she has raised, if that would be helpful.

On the Scottish Prison Service—

Can I just reply to that issue before it goes out of my head, convener? The question that Karen Adam asked is really important here, because the fact is that someone who works in the NHS does not require a gender recognition certificate to live their life as a trans man or trans woman. A gender recognition certificate is not required to work in the NHS. We are perhaps focusing on a gender recognition certificate when what is actually important is the day-to-day running of the NHS, its ability to meet people’s specific needs and requirements—as it does day in, day out—and its support for staff in difficult circumstances. It is important to manage that balance. Because each circumstance will be very different, it is difficult to legislate for that, particularly when staff do not require to have a GRC. That is my caveat here.

Yes, I see your point. The exclusions are exactly the same, and the bill makes no change. The updated guidance that the Equality and Human Rights Commission has issued should be followed by public bodies, and that guidance is clear. The EHRC is clear that if a public body deems it proportionate—the EHRC gives some guidance on proportionality in applying those exceptions—to exclude trans women, or trans men for that matter, with or without a gender recognition certificate, it is entirely within the 2010 act for it to be able to do so. I do not think that I can be any clearer than that.

Jamie Greene’s point on the use of the phrase “for the avoidance of doubt” just popped back into my head. That is not normally something that we would have in the text of the bill. However, the reason that I felt that it was important, in this case, to have it in the bill relates to the discussions that we have just had. It is—to go back to Pauline McNeill’s point—intended to provide absolute clarity; it is stating the obvious, and the facts of the matter. From one point of view, why would we need to do that? It is the absolute law and the facts of the matter, and it cannot change the 2010 act. However, we felt that, because of the importance of the discussion and the need for reassurance, it was important and proportionate to put it in the text of the bill. That is the clearest way of moving forward.

What is not required is for different elements of the 2010 act to be pulled out and also to be included in the text of the bill, because the 2010 act covers all that, and there is no change.

On Brian Whittle’s point, I accept the need for sports governing bodies to be clear about what relates to their sport, and each sport is different in relation to the treatment of transgender athletes. We have seen different governing bodies develop and change their guidance in the light of rulings, the evidence that they have taken and the rulings that they have made, and that is entirely appropriate. Sportscotland updated its guidance last year in order to try to help with that.

All governing bodies need to apply the principles of the Equality Act 2010, and—

I was going to turn to the reasons why I do not support amendments 23 and 104, which is because they single out section 11 of the Equality Act 2010, and the bill cannot change section 11. We have got the catch-all amendment from Pam Duncan-Glancy that I referred to earlier.

I also do not support amendment 24, which singles out section 195 of the 2010 act. The bill does not alter the exceptions in section 195, which provides for certain exceptions from sex and gender reassignment discrimination in relation to sport.

I do not support amendment 110, which focuses on collecting data on sex, because its effect on the interpretation of the bill is unclear, and nor do I support amendment 152, which requires that the functions under the bill must be exercised in accordance with the 2010 act. The requirements of the 2010 act do not impact on who can and cannot obtain a GRC or the process for obtaining a GRC.

Let me turn to amendments in relation to the Equality Act 2010 and guidance. As I have said, it is for the UK Government, or the Equality and Human Rights Commission, as a reserved body, to issue guidance on the Equality Act 2010. The EHRC is a statutory non-departmental public body established by the Equality Act 2006.

In relation to the 2010 act, the EHRC has published guidance for individuals, organisations and the public sector. It published updated guidance earlier this year on protecting people from sex and gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the act. It has also published a statutory code of practice, which assists service providers with understanding the relevant issues in relation to the act. It is the right body to do that. As I said earlier, if the EHRC wants to update its guidance again after the bill has passed, we would welcome that.

On that basis, I cannot support amendments 25, 74, 75, 101, 103 and 151.

Just one second—let me finish this point while it is still in my head.

The Scottish Prison Service was mentioned. I put it on record that the Scottish Prison Service carries out robust risk assessments. Whether we are talking about a transgender woman or a transgender man, and whether or not they have a gender recognition certificate, the Prison Service will place them in the estate that is risk assessed as best for them and for the other prisoners in that estate. That is how the Prison Service has operated and will continue to operate, whether or not someone has a gender recognition certificate.