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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 August 2025
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Displaying 1428 contributions

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Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 17 January 2023

Shona Robison

It would be good to get away from that, would it not? Previously, we had the concordat, which had a very different way of delivering services. Ring fencing was almost entirely done away with at that point. However, it is fair to say that perhaps there has not been delivery in some quarters of some of the priorities. Let me be as gentle as that.

As we have touched on on a couple of occasions in this session, the question is: what could be done that strikes the right balance between maximising flexibility and having accountability for what is spent? There might be some issues around the transparency of what is spent on what. How that is achieved is part of the discussion that needs to be had.

Let us go back to homelessness. No one in this room and probably no one in local government or elsewhere would say that investment in homelessness services is not a priority. However, that is a discrete amount of funding. I would need some assurance, if there is not a discrete pot of funding for that purpose but the funding goes into a bigger pot and homelessness is an agreed priority for all of us, about how that translates to what is delivered by a local authority on homelessness services. That is a really important, discrete area of work that supports some of our most vulnerable people.

That is one example. We need to track that out and discuss what that might look like in order to give all of us the assurance that we need. If questions are asked in the chamber about homelessness, I need to have assurance and confidence that what I say about the delivery of homelessness services is the reality on the ground.

Those are the types of discussions that we need to have. We need to get it right, and the approach needs to be able to last for the long term, so that we can get away from what you have described as being interminable annual discussions.

That is not to say that local priorities are not important—they are important. Each local authority, quite rightly, has priorities that differ, and that is not to cut across that at all. However, some priorities will be agreed. The Covid recovery plan maybe points the way to some degree, in that it was all shoulders to the wheel against clear objectives and joint priorities. There might be some lessons in that for how we apply that learning to other areas.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 17 January 2023

Shona Robison

On the last point, I need to be totally honest: there is no more money on the horizon, because there is no more money on our horizon. There is no magic pot of money hidden away—that is absolutely not the case—and, for the first time in a long time, there is very limited, if any, carry-forward for the Scottish Government. These are really challenging times.

The answer to the point about flexibility is yes. To go back to the exchange with Mark Griffin, there is a balance to be struck. It is right that the presumption is to maximise flexibility, particularly in these challenging times, but you will often have heard, as I have, Scottish ministers being asked about and held to account for the delivery or otherwise of local government on key shared priorities. That is the important bit that we need to get right. It is about the accountability, trust and confidence that ministers would have in education, housing or whatever. If ring fencing was removed, what commitments would be made that those would remain a priority?

In that regard, I can think of discrete areas in my portfolio, such as homelessness investment. Important investment has been made in the housing first approach and in ending homelessness and, as the minister responsible for that, I would want assurance that that remained a priority and that the appropriate funding would be allocated to deliver on the commitments that have been made.

Those are all part of the discussions that we continue to have. The core of the new fiscal framework and the new deal will be about trying to get that balance right. We do not want to micromanage local authorities, but we want to have confidence and assurance that, when we agree priorities to make people’s lives better, we see some delivery of the improvements through whichever partner we are working with.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 17 January 2023

Shona Robison

It is not just local government that needs to look at service reform; rather, we need to look across the public sector to see how we can do things differently. That is not about having a diminution or reduction in the quality of service; it is a recognition that, if we look towards years 3 and 4 of this budget cycle, we see that continuing with business as usual is really not an option, given the reductions in resources that will be coming to the Scottish Government. Over the next couple of years, we need to look at how reform could happen.

The Accounts Commission has likewise said that local government needs to be part of the story, and it is a huge part of the public sector landscape. We have just touched on local government’s role in health, but there is interaction between local government and other public services and interaction between local authorities regionally.

We need to have quite a rapid dialogue. It is a dialogue; it is not for us to tell local government how it should reform. It needs to be primarily a dialogue in local government about the appetite for reform and change. I certainly think that there is an appetite in the Scottish Government to support that type of thinking. If we can be of assistance to local government and, indeed, other parts of the public sector, we are keen to do that.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 17 January 2023

Shona Robison

Do you mean in respect of the financial framework and borrowing powers?

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 17 January 2023

Shona Robison

Of course. Absolutely.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 17 January 2023

Shona Robison

There has been agreement to talk, but there has not been much detail about any progress being made specifically. I would be happy to drop the committee a note on what the latest position is.

Maybe I am being entirely optimistic here, but I would like to think that the UK Government perhaps recognises the fact that the arrangements that have been around for over 20 years are now wearing a bit thin and are not fit for purpose. That might be a good starting point. I will write to you, or I will ask the DFM to write.

11:30  

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 17 January 2023

Shona Robison

First, I will say a little bit about the context, because it is important. The UK Government made decisions in the autumn statement. The capital flow from the UK Government to the Scottish Government is obviously the key lever for the quantum, and we saw a 3.4 per cent real-terms reduction in our capital allocation between 2022-23 and 2023-24. In addition, the impact of high inflation places significant additional pressure on what the capital programme can deliver. We also recognise that the flat and falling capital grant allocation that Scotland received, along with that inflation, really reduces the buying power of that investment, meaning that the money that we have cannot go as far as we would like it to go. That is the context.

It is also important to say, though, that we have committed and remain committed to making more than £3.5 billion available for affordable housing over the current parliamentary session. There were always going to be peaks and troughs of investment; I have set that out before.

The 2023-24 budget for the affordable housing supply programme represents a net decrease of 4.7 per cent—£36.87 million—on the previously published capital spending review figure for 2023-24. When you take financial transactions into account, the figure that you are left with is £36.87 million because there has been an increase in financial transactions. As this is a key priority, we will be able to mitigate the circa £37 million reduction to some extent. That is because, first, there will be a £15 million in-year transfer from our energy colleagues to help to fund zero-emission heating systems and, secondly, the charitable bond donations that have been generated by investment and bonds this year and the potential investment in 2023-24 will also generate charitable donations that will be directed towards that investment in social rented homes. It is difficult to put an absolute figure on that. If you want to explore that further at some point, I will be happy to do so, based on the return that we got for the investment last year. However, it is sizeable. Therefore, taken together, those elements close the gap of the £37 million reduction to quite a large extent.

10:30  

The caveat is that, even with all of that having been said and with all the mitigation, the purchasing power of the investment will not be the same as it was two or three years ago. We will see what more we can do, and the sector is working hard on joint procurement, trying to drive down costs with off-site construction and finding innovative ways of making every pound go as far as possible.

In summary, it is an area of huge importance to us. We are mitigating that relatively small reduction, but the global amount of a £3.5 billion commitment remains the same as it was.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 17 January 2023

Shona Robison

You are right to point out that investment in affordable housing makes a really important contribution to tackling child poverty, the net zero agenda and reducing fuel poverty. Through our planned mitigations, which I have set out—the three areas of charitable bonds, financial transactions and the energy money transfer—we hope that there will be no negative impact on the delivery of affordable homes in 2023-24, although the more important impact will likely remain that of the global issues affecting construction on the pace of affordable housing delivery, inflation costs, interest rates and all of that. We are working closely with the construction industry and housing partners to mitigate those impacts, where possible. We operate a flexible grant system that can take account of increased costs. That is a negotiation between the contractor and the social landlord, which is the housing association. We will continue to collaborate with all our partners to achieve our shared goal of delivering more affordable homes for Scotland.

It was always assumed, as I said earlier, that there would be peaks and troughs. Unfortunately, the factors bearing down on all forms of construction, not just affordable house building, mean that, until things change, there will be smaller bangs for bucks. Partners are working very hard, but the situation has meant a slowdown in some of the delivery of projects, and that has been reflected in locations across Scotland.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 17 January 2023

Shona Robison

We are aware of that. There have been changes to some of the levels available, which have been reviewed and increased in recognition of that. There is a geographical variation as well. There are obvious hotspots that, despite all the pressures on the market, continue to be very buoyant and difficult for people to access, but that is not uniform across the whole of Scotland. There are options that we have seen expanded, such as mid-market rent, which is still much more affordable than the private rented sector and can sometimes be a good option for people in that position.

There is, undoubtedly, a challenge for people in some areas of Scotland to get into the housing market; indeed, the rental market can be a challenge as well. We are working with local authorities, particularly in those areas, to look at what innovative solutions they can bring forward. Last year, for example, we gave some additional money to the affordable housing supply programme in Edinburgh after being asked for that. We have asked them to come forward with innovative solutions, on which we would look favourably, to see how we could work with them to help deliver those. I understand that they are working on some proposals.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 17 January 2023

Shona Robison

Good morning.