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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 August 2025
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Displaying 1264 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Scottish Mental Health Law Review

Meeting date: 1 March 2023

Pauline McNeill

Would that be quite a radical change to make? I do not know enough to know whether it would be.

Criminal Justice Committee

Scottish Mental Health Law Review

Meeting date: 1 March 2023

Pauline McNeill

Do you feel optimistic? Given what I have heard, I am not that optimistic that things will change. We have heard evidence that the police are the first responders for everything, including this. For that to change, there has to be a structural change in service. Otherwise, I do not see how things will change.

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

So, you were not aware that women’s groups were not consulted? I am not trying to give you a trick question.

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

I do, in a minute. I am really just trying to get some clarity. That is all that I am trying to do.

In balancing the rights of everyone—and I note what you have said about the importance of balancing the rights of trans people—would you agree that Rhona Hotchkiss is not talking about the possibility that women might be at risk, but that she is saying that the privacy and dignity of women in prisons are also important?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

Can you be clear with me?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

I am sorry, but that does not make any sense. If that was one factor, would it be fair to say that the decision maker could, under the policy, have said, “Okay. I have looked at that. This person has self-identified as a woman. I’m going to segregate the person in Barlinnie until we decide where the person is going to go”? Could that have been a decision or not?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

They checked that with headquarters.

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

You are talking about hindsight.

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

This is—I hope—a straightforward question. It follows on from Katy Clark’s question about who made the decision and all that. I am not trying to get you to say who made it, but I did not understand something.

There is a segregated unit in Barlinnie for sex offenders; I have actually been to the cells for individual solitary confinement. Why did the decision maker not just hold the prisoner in the segregated unit in the estate for assessment? That is a really important question, to answer now or to come back to the committee on at some point.

Is the problem that the 2014 policy is a self-ID policy, so you did not have a choice? It is really important to get to the bottom of that. If we want to move on from this, and if there are genuine lessons to be learned, we need to know why.

This seems like an obvious and sensible question that any member of the public would ask. Why did the prisoner need to go to Cornton Vale to be assessed and segregated? We have heard that there was no risk to women, but they could have been segregated somewhere else. I have a clear question. Why did the decision maker not hold Isla Bryson in another part of the male estate until a decision was made—albeit that I might not have liked the decision?

Criminal Justice Committee

Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons

Meeting date: 22 February 2023

Pauline McNeill

The decision maker chose not to do that.