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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 2 May 2025
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Displaying 1190 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

I will do my best, but the problem is that there is a lot of complexity in the bill. I want to try to understand what the Government is writing into the bill.

My question should be fairly succinct and is on the broad provisions to allow virtual attendance for any proceedings. The Lord Justice General has powers to say that someone can attend virtually. How is that process kicked off? My reading of the bill is that the court can overturn that, which I presume is on an individual case-by-case basis. What would prompt the Lord Justice General to make such a decision in a case that they are not directly involved in?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

Why is the subsection needed, then?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

The explanatory notes referred to a court “dealing with a case”. Up to what stage does that mean?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

Does that mean, then, that this subsection applies up to full committal?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

Thank you very much. That was helpful.

I want to ask about the costs, but perhaps you cannot answer this question. I think that Liam Kerr tried to get an answer from you about it.

You said in the letter to the Finance and Public Administration Committee that £4.2 billion is being invested across the criminal justice system, but I am interested in what amount of that £4.2 billion is being allocated for modernisation. Most witnesses who believe that this is a good thing will still say that it cannot really do what it is supposed to do unless there is some investment in the technology. I believe that a sheriff court went down yesterday, because the connection was so poor. Indeed, I have seen it myself—it happens all the time.

We have seen this before with promises that we will be able to work out the costs once the legislation is passed. However, I have concerns about passing laws that substantially overturn existing practices without knowing what the Government will spend. Even the police are saying that they would love to have the flexibility of not physically having to attend court but, under the current arrangement, that is not practical. The Government needs to give us an answer on what investment it will make and how quickly it can make it.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

I totally understand that. Obviously, you have to start somewhere. Notwithstanding what you might say about its being a matter for the courts, though, surely it is still a matter for you, as cabinet secretary, to be satisfied that the courts, using the powers that you will give them, are rolling out the virtual system at the point at which everyone feels content that it is the quality that it should be.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

Maybe I have misunderstood. The Lord Justice General can use the power for a class of hearings. I have followed this line of questioning previously and I did not get that answer, although it was not you I was asking. You are saying that the power is for a class of hearings. For example, the Lord Justice General could say that all sentencing hearings will be done virtually.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

In that case, does anyone want to explain what is meant by proposed new section 5B(7) in the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, as inserted by section 7 of the bill? The explanatory notes say:

“Subsection (7) means that a court which began dealing with a case at the petition stage can continue dealing with it”.

I previously put this question to the Crown. The notes go on to say:

“In practice, because jurisdiction under subsection (5) ends with an accused being fully committed for trial ... subsection (7) is likely to be relevant”.

When I put the question on that, I got the impression that people were asking, “Why do we even need that in the bill?”

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

But the notes about the subsection say that

“a court which began dealing with a case at the petition stage can continue dealing with it”.

Does that not refer to solemn cases, too?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

Right. It is important to get that on the record, as you said, cabinet secretary. I am sure that you agree that there is a balance to be struck between the operational matters and a fair legal framework, in which the default position is physical appearance but virtual appearance is allowed when the case can be made for it.

On the specified locations, I have a similar line of questioning to Liam Kerr’s. Does the bill specify requirements in relation to setting? Does the appearance have to be from a specific approved place?