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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 16 August 2025
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Displaying 1264 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Good morning. I put my first question to Stuart Munro. The question of the three-verdict system has long been debated in Scotland. You might remember that Michael McMahon, a Labour Party member, introduced a bill on the issue many years ago. If the Parliament decides to retain the not proven verdict, do you think that we will always be discussing the three-verdict system, given that it is unusual? Secondly, do you think that the Government’s rationale for changing it is clear?

11:00  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Yes, thank you. None of us, apart from Katy Clark, has practised criminal law in the courts, so we are learning as we go. What I am really driving at is this: is it fair to say that the instructions that the jury will be given will be primarily around the Crown proving its case beyond reasonable doubt? In other words, the first question is not about what verdict you are going to choose. Is it fair to say that the jury will be directed to decide guilt or innocence, and then have to decide which verdict is appropriate?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

I have one final question for Ronnie Renucci. We have been hearing that the not proven verdict is used a lot in rape cases. Have you any comment on whether, in your experience—I realise that this is just your evidence—there is a tendency for not proven verdicts in rape cases?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

I understand. Do you have any view on why that is?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Thank you. That is really helpful.

I said to the previous panel that most of us are laypeople so are a bit unfamiliar with a lot of practices, certainly in relation to prosecution policy. Broadly speaking, when you are marking a case—for example, a rape case—I presume that there is some guidance for prosecutors on how to decide whether the evidence is there to take a case forward. Is it harder to do that in rape cases than in other cases?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Thank you—that is a fair point.

Lastly, aside from the three verdicts, you do not see why the current system should change. Is it fair to highlight, however, that we currently have three verdicts and that that is why—as Joe Duffy said earlier—we convict on a majority of one? At present, someone can be tried and convicted of murder or rape on the difference of one vote. That is the reason why, if we were to remove one of the verdicts, the Government would also look at the ratio of the jury. Is it fair to say that we should look at the ratio if we take away one of the verdicts?

I realise that that is not where you are coming from—you just feel that there should be more convictions. However, we must look not just at rape trials but at all trials.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Would it not be fair, therefore, for the Government to look at the majority issue?

10:45  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

I totally acknowledge that. However, it is that issue that I am questioning you on. Conviction is possible on a majority of one. Surely, without any bias in favour of one view or the other, you can see that, if one of the verdicts is taken away, it would be fair to look at the ratio of the jury, in order to create a balanced system. You might come up with a different answer—such as eight or 10—but is it not fair to look at the issue?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Would you acknowledge that the committee is required to look at changes that affect all trials, including for rape, murder and everything else?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Yes, I have acknowledged that—