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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 1 May 2025
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Displaying 1190 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

I am just trying to illustrate exactly what you said there, cabinet secretary鈥攚e all have to use our judgment. It is hard to decide whether to support the new option on the table; I find it confusing that some support it, but not the two-thirds majority. The senators support it, and you have gone with that, but some still support the 12-juror approach, and others want unanimity. It is really difficult to see a way through all that.

Where we agree鈥攁nd I think that the committee agrees with this, too鈥攊s that, given all the options, if we think that the system, with corroboration and the three verdicts, was reasonably balanced, we will need to find out how we ensure fairness for everyone in a new system. I welcome what you have done with juries, but I just wanted to illustrate that view.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

I am not asking for that. You know my position on the sexual offences court, which is that the issue could be resolved by making the sexual offences court a division of the High Court and of the sheriff court. We would then not need to go into the mechanics of who represents whom. However, as you are creating a new court, I would have thought that we would all be interested in making sure that the representation aspect is not diluted by the new court. It would be helpful if you could clarify that point.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

You referred to the mock trials. Was it that data that made you conclude that 12 was the number of jurors to go with?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

I was just trying to ascertain the Government鈥檚 position on why that is a fairer approach. It was a two-thirds majority before, and it is a two-thirds majority now. The Government received representations from the senators before it drafted the bill, but it has now changed it because, as you have said, it has to be fair for everyone. Presumably, that is your rationale. If you are saying that you are changing it because many people support such a change, that is surely not a rationale for doing so, because it does not really matter who supports what if you are trying to achieve fairness.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

We know who does not support it, but I just wanted to give you a chance to say who does.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

I turn to rights of audience. I thank your team for all the work that they have done in responding to the committee鈥檚 concerns on that, but it might be helpful to put some of this on the record.

My understanding is that you have tried to address the question of rights of audience because, if a case is prosecuted in the High Court, it will attract not only an advocate depute on behalf of the Crown but counsel on behalf of the defence. You have tried to replicate the current position as best you can and to get the right approach in relation to anything that is likely to attract a sentence of more than five years. However, I do not think that you have said anything about who would prosecute those cases. As you know, in the sheriff court, it is procurators fiscal who prosecute cases, but advocate deputes prosecute in the High Court. Is there still a gap in relation to who appears in the sexual offences court?

If you solve the question of rights of audience to ensure that the accused is represented by counsel in the same way that they would have been had the case gone to the High Court, correspondingly, you need to ensure that there is an advocate depute prosecuting the cases that were previously prosecuted in the High Court. We are talking, for example, about non-rape cases involving serious sexual offences that would attract sentences of more than five years.

I do not know whether you have said anything about that, but it has occurred to me that that needs to be resolved as well.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

At the moment, the Lord Advocate would appoint advocate deputes, but, with sheriff court cases, there is no requirement for that, and procurators fiscal would prosecute those cases. If you do not prescribe for the prosecution, you could have a disparity. Does that make sense to you?

11:15  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

We do not have any data to rely on to know whether a majority of 10 to five would achieve, as you have set out, fairness to victims and the accused. It is a bit of a shot in the dark.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

However, the same data would be used to determine whether 15 was fairer, too. Do you see where I am going with that?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

Beyond that, would the normal rules apply?