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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 6 August 2025
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Displaying 1264 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Prisons and Prison Policy

Meeting date: 15 September 2021

Pauline McNeill

So you have the money, but it takes three to four years to design and build a prison.

Criminal Justice Committee

Prisons and Prison Policy

Meeting date: 15 September 2021

Pauline McNeill

Good morning, everyone. My question concerns the conditions in which prisoners on remand and other prisoners are held in our prison estate. I am sure that I do not need to say it, but—for the record—we have among the highest numbers in Europe of prisoners on remand. Prisoners are on remand for an average of 18 months. Notwithstanding the pandemic, the figures are alarming.

I am interested to hear answers from quite a few members of the panel. Wendy Sinclair-Gieben, Dr Katrina Morrison from the Howard League, Phil Fairlie and Teresa Medhurst might like to answer the question. Is it time to consider specific rights, in particular for remand prisoners, but also for the prison population generally, in relation to being out of cells for a certain amount of time in a day? I am certainly keen that all prisoners have the right to fresh air. I realise that there are capacity issues and estate issues.

I record my admiration for the work that is done by prison officers and others who are involved in running our prison estate. The papers that have been provided dig deep into the intricacies of having a rising and ageing population, and all the other things. I am very conscious of that.

I am interested in moving forward and looking to the future to where we would ideally like to be. Is it time to have specific enforceable rights—even a charter of rights for prisoners—such that they would be allowed out of their cells once a day for a prescribed amount of time to get fresh air?

I suggest that we start with Wendy Sinclair-Gieben, who is the chief inspector of prisons.

Criminal Justice Committee

Prisons and Prison Policy

Meeting date: 15 September 2021

Pauline McNeill

Can you confirm that you referred to a figure of 80 per cent to 85 per cent?

Criminal Justice Committee

Prisons and Prison Policy

Meeting date: 15 September 2021

Pauline McNeill

My question is for Teresa Medhurst. I understand that Barlinnie is the largest prison in the estate. It has had some refurbishment through the years and I visited it a few times before it was refurbished. I am a bit surprised that it has taken so long for the replacement to come around given Barlinnie’s importance to Glasgow and the west of Scotland. The prison was meant to house mainly short-term prisoners and, as I saw from the piece on STV that was referred to earlier, it is continually over capacity.

We cannot possibly fulfil any of the aspirations that we talked about unless prisons are modernised. I ask you to talk me through what is happening. I believe that the replacement will not be completed until 2024-25. I have lodged a parliamentary question on the matter but I am still waiting on an answer. I know that it took some time to secure the land for the prison but there seems to me to be quite a delay between 2021 and 2024-25. Will you speak to why it will take so long? Do you agree that there is an imperative to replace Barlinnie prison as soon as possible?

Criminal Justice Committee

Prisons and Prison Policy

Meeting date: 15 September 2021

Pauline McNeill

Yes. It is for the chief executive.

Criminal Justice Committee

Prisons and Prison Policy

Meeting date: 15 September 2021

Pauline McNeill

We have Allister Purdie.

Criminal Justice Committee

Prisons and Prison Policy

Meeting date: 15 September 2021

Pauline McNeill

That is your evidence. When we built Kilmarnock and Addiewell prisons, they took four years to complete. Is that right?

Criminal Justice Committee

Prisons and Prison Policy

Meeting date: 15 September 2021

Pauline McNeill

I am sorry to dwell on this. Obviously, I do not know anything about the design of prisons—no, I know a little bit about it because I remember the design of Addiewell and Kilmarnock and how it was changed to make prison officers’ lines of sight easier. Does it take three years up and down the country to design a prison? Would it be the same in England or Wales?

Criminal Justice Committee

Prisons and Prison Policy

Meeting date: 15 September 2021

Pauline McNeill

Lastly, I ask Teresa Medhurst to answer that question.

Criminal Justice Committee

Prisons and Prison Policy

Meeting date: 15 September 2021

Pauline McNeill

My question is why it has taken so long. Why would it take to 2025-26? Is that just how long it takes to build a prison? It seems an extraordinarily long timetable. That means that, for five years, until we imprison fewer people, the largest prison in the estate, which is over capacity, will still take the wrong prisoners—it is meant to be a short-term prison but it is taking long-term prisoners—and we will not be able to get prisoners out of their cells. What is the explanation for why it will take until 2026? I thought that it was 2025, but now you are saying that it is 2026.