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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 June 2025
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Displaying 1099 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Angela Constance

In a previous life, I advocated for the incorporation of the Istanbul convention and worked closely with Westminster colleagues to pursue that at UK level. The Istanbul convention is looking for action around prevention to combat all forms of violence against women and girls, and, in particular, for policies to be integrated across Government, and for the impact of those programmes to be measured.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Angela Constance

We have a generous legal aid system that compares well with those of many or most of our European counterparts. Our civil legal aid has a wide scope, and there have been four uplifts to legal aid since 2019, and an additional resource of 拢31 million since 2021. The latest uplift of 拢11 million, from memory, equates to a 10 per cent increase. We invest heavily in legal aid and we also support the Scottish Women鈥檚 Rights Centre. We also support, with up to around 拢400,000 over a period of three years, a pilot project that has been established through the Scottish Legal Aid Board to support Scottish Women鈥檚 Aid with regard to the provision of legal advice to women who are affected by gender-based violence. That is being taken forward in collaboration with Edinburgh Women鈥檚 Aid and a firm of solicitors.

On the point about solicitors, the Minister for Victims and Community Safety jointly chairs a working group about the future of the legal profession, which, of course, is about diversity but is also about capacity.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Angela Constance

The programme for government made a commitment about beginning to roll out body-worn cameras, and said that this Government will support Police Scotland to begin that process in summer 2024, rolling them out to, I think, 14,000 police officers.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Angela Constance

What I observe and am part of across Government, and in my dialogue with the new chief constable as well as the previous one and through my involvement with Police Scotland, is that, at strategic level, Police Scotland is focused on community policing but its focus also applies to the threats that we experience globally and nationally. The advantage of having a national police force is that we have more flexible deployment of resources.

John Swinney is correct to say that the nature of crime is changing. We need only look at cybercrime as an example of that. Tackling that will, of course, require different forms of expertise. That is why it is important that I secure the best deal possible for the chief constable, who is, I say with respect, better placed than anybody sitting at this table, including me, to make decisions on how best to combat the threat that we face at community or national level, and how to deploy our resources to best effect.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Angela Constance

It is a very recent judgment. I am conscious that it has immediate and retrospective effect. The judgment鈥擟atriona Dalrymple will keep me right鈥攚ill apply beyond sexual offence cases.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Angela Constance

Those issues are important. The Lord Advocate negotiates her budget with the Deputy First Minister in the same way that all Scottish Government ministers do. Although the justice portfolio budget has a direct bearing on the police, fire and courts services, that is not the case for the Crown Office. I am limited in what I can say about that because that is a discussion for the Lord Advocate with the Deputy First Minister.

I will not say too much about the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice (Scotland) Bill because we have a number of lengthy sessions ahead of us on that, but I hope that the bill will reach stage 3 in advance of next year鈥檚 budget. The implementation of legislation will certainly be a live issue for next year鈥檚 budget, and I will talk to the committee more about my initial thoughts on how the implementation of a landmark bill can be phased.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Angela Constance

Notwithstanding the fact that people are imprisoned based on decisions made by the courts, I think that the current prison population is too high and I do not think that it is sustainable. When I went to work 20 years ago, the HMP Perth population was 5,500. This week, it is 7,964. A high prison population comes with risks. His Majesty鈥檚 Inspectorate of Prisons for Scotland made that very clear, and has issued a clarion call for action. I intend to pursue that because a high prison population does not just present risks for the wellbeing of prisoners and staff; it is not in the best interests of our communities when it comes to reducing reoffending. When I met justice spokespeople a few weeks ago, I made it clear that the statement that I made to Parliament in October would not be my first and only statement to Parliament, and I certainly anticipate returning to Parliament before the end of the year.

There are, indeed, budgetary implications of having a high prison population. Some costs are operational costs for the Scottish Prison Service. As I intimated earlier, there are smarter ways to invest money to keep our communities safe, notwithstanding that there will always be a need for prisons and it will always be the case that prison is absolutely necessary for public protection.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Angela Constance

I think that we are getting there. There is the prison population leadership group. We need to avoid people seeing the Prison Service as the end of the line once they have done their jobs鈥攐nce people have been arrested and prosecuted and the courts have done their job. Of course those things need to continue to happen, but we must realise that having a growing and unsustainable prison population is not just a Scottish Prison Service problem. It is a justice problem and, ultimately, it will be a community safety problem.

On ensuring that all the arrows are flying in the right direction, I am confident that there is a growing realisation in the justice sector that our prisons are not the end of the line. Practitioners know that what happens in prisons matters because most people will come out, but it is also important to note that this is not just a justice sector issue. For example, my engagement with health services is particularly important. I will give an example.

As the Scottish Prison Service reconfigures the use of its current prison estate鈥攖here are limits to that鈥攊t is renovating part of Polmont to use spare capacity there. However, as the prison population increases in Polmont, that will place increasing pressure and demand on health services in NHS Forth Valley, which is a smaller health board. I have raised that issue in the cross-ministerial group on justice and health. That is just one example.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Angela Constance

Yes. I believe that there is a growing understanding and appreciation that this is not just an SPS problem or a justice problem. I report weekly to the Cabinet on the situation in and around our prisons. Part of the work that we are doing to address the situation鈥攂oth immediately and in the longer term鈥攊s that recalibration of what we need to do in justice, but we will also have very specific asks of other colleagues across Government.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 8 November 2023

Angela Constance

I will double check that. I was not the cabinet secretary in 2019. A decision will have to be made as the contract comes to an end. When the contract comes to an end next year, it will be necessary to either bring HMP Kilmarnock into public ownership or go through a retendering exercise.