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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 9 August 2025
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Displaying 1169 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 28 April 2022

Sharon Dowey

Good morning. I start by going over a point that was raised at last week’s meeting, when I asked about the decision to continue with the contract with FMEL, rather than going back to the tendering process as was CMAL’s preference at that point. Gill Miller said:

“Transport Scotland submitted a paper to ministers to say that FMEL was the preferred bidder and that the First Minister would be announcing that at a visit to the yard on 31 August 2015.”

She went on to say,

“we know that the pre-qualification exercise made it clear that the provision of a 100 per cent refund guarantee was mandatory”

and

“We asked Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government for all documentation relating to the minister’s decision, but we did not receive any.”

At that meeting, Antony Clark said:

“one would expect the accountable officer in Transport Scotland to share their thoughts, ideas, risks and concerns, and to make proposals to the Scottish ministers, on which ministers can reflect and make a formal decision. As the Auditor General has indicated, one would expect that to be recorded and documented.”

Later in the meeting, Mr Boyle, you said:

“We do not entirely know whether this is a case of there being no document to support that important decision, or of our having asked for one and of its not being provided.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 21 April 2022; c 26, 28, 27 and 29.]

The whole scenario gives great cause for concern regarding transparency and secrecy issues in the Scottish Government, and the reasons behind why that critical information has not been recorded. It could appear that, after having announced FMEL as the preferred bidder on 31 August, the First Minister would not have wanted to announce the very next month that the bid was not valid as a result of a builder’s refund guarantee not being given and that the Government was going back to the tendering process. It is not good practice for the concerns of CMAL not to be taken into consideration, and for CMAL to be overruled by Transport Scotland and Scottish ministers, but it is totally unacceptable for the meetings and decisions not to have been recorded.

I have two questions. Do you think that there were political motives and pressures from the Scottish Government that led to the failings in the process and the continuation of the contract with FMEL? Would such a decision have been taken by a minister or cabinet secretary, by the First Minister or by the Cabinet as a whole, and who would have been responsible and accountable for recording all the minutes of the meetings and the decisions that came from them?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 28 April 2022

Sharon Dowey

To touch on something that Mr Coffey mentioned, CMAL issued a design and build contract in November. One month after the minister said that the contract was to proceed, £24.2 million—24.9 per cent or just under a quarter of the total contract value—was given for procurement deposits. The following month, in December, £2.8 million was given for cutting of steel. On page 25 of the Audit Scotland report, key message 2 states:

“FMEL began vessel construction before it had agreed the detailed design with CMAL.”

Is it normal procedure to start building a vessel before a finalised drawing has been signed off? Who would have authorised the payments to start being given to FMEL before that had been completed?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of NHS Highland”

Meeting date: 28 April 2022

Sharon Dowey

I will ask about workforce challenges. Previous section 22 reports highlighted that NHS Highland needed to address its reliance on locum and agency staff to achieve long-term financial sustainability. Covid-19 pressures have increased the board’s requirements for locum and supplementary staffing and have delayed plans for the development of the attraction, recruitment and retention strategy. Nonetheless, the board has made progress in recruiting permanent medical and nursing staff. It has filled 21 hard-to-fill consultant positions, including in the rural general hospitals that you just mentioned, as well as 62 newly qualified nurses and midwives. The board also took the management of locums back in-house in October 2020 to better control spending and rates.

Can you tell us a bit more about what actions the board is taking to reduce reliance on locum staff?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of NHS Highland”

Meeting date: 28 April 2022

Sharon Dowey

You have covered my next question, which was about what the board has been doing to attract, recruit and train the workforce needed in NHS Highland. Have the processes that you have put in place been enough to encourage people to stay in their positions? You have said that you have recruited 21 hard-to-fill consultant posts and taken on 62 newly qualified nurses, but have you managed to retain all of them? In our previous evidence session on this report, I asked whether the pandemic was having an effect on keeping staff, given that people were restricted from moving around. Now that restrictions have loosened, have you seen any change in that respect?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 28 April 2022

Sharon Dowey

So it is a systemic failure of the Government to record crucial information. Are you aware of any directive or action taken by the Scottish Government since the publication of your report to ensure that all ministers and civil servants ensure that minutes and evidence of meetings are recorded?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 28 April 2022

Sharon Dowey

My final question is also a long one. The former management of FMEL are critical of the report that was produced by the turnaround director following nationalisation of the Ferguson Marine shipyard. How would you characterise that report and the process by which it was completed?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 28 April 2022

Sharon Dowey

One of the comments in the evidence from the former management of FMEL is:

“Audit Scotland did not consider vessel design or the initial tendering process, which FMEL argue is essential to understanding subsequent delays and cost increases.”

What is your response to that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Sharon Dowey

Good morning, Mr Boyle. Your team has provided a report that, in your words, shows “a multitude of failings”. It is a comprehensive report, even with the lack of available documentary evidence, and has raised an awful lot of concerns and a lot more questions. Once again, the issue of transparency in the Scottish Government has been raised.

The report makes it clear that the project has been riddled with problems and delays over six years. The vessels are four years late and it now looks like they will be five years late. Currently, the cost is two and a half times the original budget. Worryingly, paragraph 105 states:

“The Scottish Government is committed to paying the additional vessel costs, regardless of the final price.”

All of that is at taxpayers’ expense and, seemingly, with no accountability from ministers.

Paragraph 141 states:

“Because engines and equipment were purchased several years in advance, warranties have expired, and any repairs required before vessel 801 enters service could be expensive and time-consuming.”

We now know that there will be delays due to cabling being too short for the vessels and, to add another layer to the saga, once the vessels eventually come into service, there is now talk that they are 40m too long for the harbours that they will serve and that the masters of the boats who have been practising using simulators have been unable to dock them safely.

It seems that the story will continue, the costs will continue to rise and there might well be further delays. That is before we start talking about flawed decision-making processes, a lack of documentary evidence and the Scottish Government ignoring alarm bells that have gone off repeatedly. Therefore, it is understandable that there is a lot of interest in the report.

Exhibit 1 shows that, in August 2015, ministers announced Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd—FMEL—as the preferred bidder. Will you tell me more about the decision making on that? I believe that there were seven bids from six companies. Who took the decision to award the contract to FMEL, taking into account the fact that the report says that FMEL’s bid was the most expensive?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Sharon Dowey

In September, CMAL advised Transport Scotland of the risks and stated its preference to start the procurement process again. The report states:

“Transport Scotland fully appraised Scottish ministers of the significant financial and procurement risks”.

In October, Transport Scotland advised CMAL that Scottish ministers were aware of the risk and were content for CMAL to award the contract to FMEL. Is there any documentation to show that, and to explain the reasons why the contract still went ahead?

Public Audit Committee

“Social care briefing”

Meeting date: 21 April 2022

Sharon Dowey

Service users and carers do not always have a say in or choice about what support works best for them. Self-directed support was designed to give people choice and control over their care, including personalised options for carers to take short breaks from caring. SDS has not yet been fully implemented. People using social care support have described the hurdles that they encounter in accessing services and support as a battle, difficult, overcomplicated and bureaucratic. The pandemic has highlighted the precarious situation of many vulnerable people who rely on social care or support, and it had a negative impact on people who require support. The Scottish Human Rights Commission has expressed deep concern about the level of social care support that is likely to be available in future to people whose packages were reduced or withdrawn during the pandemic. How is the Scottish Government involving service users and carers in reforming social care services?