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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 25 December 2025
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Displaying 971 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Tess White

All right—thank you very much.

My final question is also for Vic. I know that Pauline Nolan wants to come in, so if she would like to come in after Vic, she should please do so.

In its written submission, the LGB Alliance suggested that issues of sexuality—the lesbian, gay and bisexual or LGB part—should be decoupled from issues of gender identity, or the TQI part, when collecting and analysing data on a range of issues. Do you agree with that?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Tess White

People talk about LGBTQI+ as an umbrella term. A lot of organisations, including the LGB Alliance, are saying that there are two distinct groups.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Tess White

My first question is for Pauline Nolan. People with disabilities are an overlooked group, as are—when it comes to interactions with services—women and older people. In this inquiry, we are looking at the public sector equality duty and impact assessments. In the Victorian era, women were on a urinary leash—they could not go out of their homes. It seems that we are going backwards when it comes to the provision of toilet facilities, which is having an unintended effect on people with disabilities and women. I am thinking, in particular, about public transport. There is a much lower percentage of people with disabilities in the workplace. If people with disabilities cannot get to and from work and have access to toilets, that is a massive issue.

I want to make two points before I ask my question. We have had the Scottish Government’s policy change whereby it is no longer going to provide £10 million for changing places toilets. There is also the unintended consequence of local government closing down local public loos. When it comes to the basic duty to carry out an impact assessment on new policies and to monitor the impact of current policies, is the provision of toilet facilities an issue that needs to be concentrated on, given that it is a basic need?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Tess White

Thank you very much. You talked about public sector organisations not really having a good understanding of their equality duties. Has Scottish Trans sought legal input on the advice and guidance that it has given to public sector bodies?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Tess White

What about Age Scotland?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Tess White

Jill, is it your organisation’s view that the law should permit employers and service providers to exclude all trans women from women-only spaces? Will you give a simple yes or no answer, please?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Tess White

Okay. I will move to my second question, convener. In its submission to the committee, the LGB Alliance says that

“unclear definitions of sex, women, men, gay and straight, make it difficult for public authorities to actively meet their responsibilities under”

the PSED. Jill, do you agree with the LGB Alliance that a lack of clarity around the definitions of sex and women has resulted in poor compliance with the PSED?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Tess White

Do you accept that failures by public bodies to meet their existing legal obligations around single-sex spaces will carry a significant cost to the public purse?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Tess White

Okay—you cannot comment. This is my fourth question, and I have two more questions to ask after it. The First Minister has emphasised that it is currently possible to exclude a trans woman from a women-only space on a case-by-case basis. Do you believe that that is practicable in the public sector, and what about the risk of women self-excluding from spaces and services because they cannot be certain that they are male free?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Tess White

That would be helpful. My next question is on something that Engender has highlighted, which is the importance of data. Given your organisation’s support for self-identification, what analysis have you done around women self-excluding from spaces and services—and, as my colleague Pam Gosal said, what about women of faith self-excluding?