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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 June 2025
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Displaying 839 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

My question is for John Wilkes. Earlier, you said that the Scottish Government might not have gone as far as it could have, and you specifically mentioned education. Is it your view that the Scottish Government, in addition to the EHRC, should be providing more and better guidance on the Equality Act 2010?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

There is a view that, basically, gender and gender identity have been privileged over sex.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

If there is a lack of leadership at the top of the Scottish Government and you, as the regulator, are saying that

“all affected protected characteristic groups”

need to be factored in, this complete muddle and fudge that is created further down the line is a result of a lack of direction from the top, particularly in relation to the key definitions.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

You say that it is working better in some areas—

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

—but when organisations crowdfund in order to go to court on basic definitions, one could argue that it is not working very well.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Before I ask my main question, minister, I want to pick up on something that you said about Police Scotland. You said that Police Scotland is “completely independent”, yet the organisations advising it on equalities policy guidance are, in large part, funded by the Scottish Government. You used the words “dignity”, “fairness” and “proportionate”. I note that there is an organisation called Police SEEN UK, whose views and input the head of HR for Police Scotland would not entertain; Police Scotland would rather have input from organisations funded in large part by the Scottish Government. Given that, I question the use of the word “independent” in relation to Police Scotland. There are huge issues with Police Scotland right now.

I am happy to write separately to you on that, minister.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

I suppose that my key point is that you have stated that Police Scotland is “completely independent”—that is what you said—but on policies in relation to equalities, and, I would add, the implementation of the PSED, it is getting its guidance from organisations that are funded in large part by the Scottish Government. So, my question is: how can Police Scotland be independent?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

I am interested in the balance of protections for different groups, which we explored with the previous panel, and the conflict of rights that has emerged. You use the words “dignity”, “fairness” and “proportionate”. I agree that those three words are very important. Is it the Scottish Government’s view that public bodies can provide for single-sex services or spaces as a matter of policy; that is, not on an individual or case-by-case basis?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Thank you, Jennifer. I interpret that as meaning that it is almost not a hard target in the objectives of chief executives of hospitals or councils. The councils are under financial pressures, the hospitals have huge financial pressures, yet the floodgates will be opened on non-implementation or interpretation of the law, and the costs could go into millions—for Scotland, it could be billions. Would you not consider suspending the pay increases until the outcome of this? If you say no, you are saying that it is very difficult and that you have not got the levers at your disposal to implement something that is really important in this space, which is dignity, fairness and a balance of proportionality in relation to the nine protected characteristics.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

When we looked at the feedback from the committee’s call for evidence on the PSED, we found that 80 per cent of the respondents indicated that public bodies do not understand or have a limited understanding of the duty. Such a high figure was very surprising to us. The EHRC’s submission says that

“the setting of equality outcomes”

is

“not always informed by robust evidence”,

which is a cause for concern. Do you believe that it is appropriate for activist organisations to offer guidance that leaves public sector bodies vulnerable to legal challenge?