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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 14 December 2025
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Displaying 1775 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thank you. There will be different views on whether the matter could be dealt with through the bill. Linked to that, given the concluding observations of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, which has twice—in 2016 and in 2023—suggested that children should have the right to withdraw from collective worship, which means RO, not RME, can you give us more detail of why you have not gone down the route of enacting those recommendations, which have been made twice in the past nine years?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

Yes.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

We will come to that issue.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks, cabinet secretary. However, in coming to that middle ground, there is a risk that you do not appease anyone and that you do not make anybody happy by—

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is helpful. Thank you.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

—I accept that your position is where you are just now.

In a slightly different space—this might have an impact on the numbers and awareness of the right, which other members will speak about—there was concern about whether young people might feel othered by some of the conversations in that regard and in relation to children being able to opt back in if they have been withdrawn. We heard some quite concerning evidence from Leah Rivka about what were, quite frankly, completely inappropriate comments by staff members. Whether it is through guidance or additional training, how do you see us dealing with potential othering or concerns about othering and the inappropriate comments that are being made, whether we like it or not?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

Good morning and thank you for joining us. I thank Douglas Hutchison for clearly articulating what I think we have heard from every panel, and probably every individual witness, since we started our scrutiny of the bill, on the distinction between religious observance and religious and moral education. That has come through loud and clear. We have to deal with the bill that is in front of us, so we are talking about both aspects, but we all get the need to separate them, so I will take that as understood.

I am interested in hearing views from both of you on how things are currently working, on levels of awareness of the right to withdraw and on how schools and teachers deal with potentially awkward conversations. I come to Susan Quinn first.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is helpful. From the point of view of young people and their families, in your experience and from speaking to other teachers, have young people been reluctant to approach a member of staff, because they do not want to be stigmatised, othered or marked out as different? Do you see othering and stigmatisation as a potential issue in how the system currently works?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

I put the same question to Douglas Hutchison. From your point of view, how is the current system working? What are some of the challenges or pitfalls?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

It might, however, be an issue if there were one individual, rather than that clear community with a strong identity. From what we heard last week, people are perhaps unwilling even to raise the issue for fear of stigmatisation or othering. However, that is not your experience.