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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 August 2025
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Displaying 1653 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

That is fine. I suppose that my question is about what the mechanisms are, if concerns are raised. I appreciate that now might not be the time to open that up.

I will move on to another question, which I know that other members also want to come in on. Is it possible for Scotland to fully comply with the access to justice requirements in the convention without legal aid reform?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

However, the point is about concerns, for example, that not enough people are aware. I accept that the SCJC is independent and has a statutory set up. However, is its remit clear enough, or broad enough, to ensure that there is that wide engagement with people?

I appreciate what the minister said about the focus and interest, in relation to the pillars of the Aarhus convention, being primarily around access to justice. However, there is also something about awareness and participation. In that respect, is the SCJC constrained by statute, or is the minister of the view that it could do what the ERCS and others say that it should be doing?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

You think that it is possible, even without the repeal of regulation 15 around the joint interest test.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

Okay—so there is scope for discussion. I suppose that my point is that you see that there is a problem with the way in which things are set up at the moment, because if there is a broader interest, one individual alone might not be able to take the case forward.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

There is also the extension of the inability in terms of access to justice at all those levels. Can you tell us about the impact on community groups and local neighbourhoods of the failures in the system and of failures to access justice in relation to health and community cohesion—the things that make us human?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

I should probably state an interest, having supported the campaign to save the park. It is an interesting example, because it is about the wider issues. The justice and legal system is a means to achieving something—in this case, access to green space in an area where people have lower life expectancy than people elsewhere in the city. There is a real issue of individual and public health.

Do the courts reflect on and understand those kinds of impacts? Community groups and organisations may be going into such things in relation to access to environmental justice, but the impacts are, in fact, about healthy living, community and those kinds of things.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

Okay. That is understood.

Mark Roberts, I have similar questions for you. How do the barriers impact community groups and people in accessing justice? How is the current non-compliance exacerbating these issues?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

If people have gone through all those processes and have still not got access to justice through the courts, the chilling effect is the main barrier. In your experience, is there a sense that people just ask themselves, “Why bother? We’ve lost at every stage. What’s the likelihood of success, given the procedural focus of court proceedings?â€

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

Thank you for being with us this morning, minister. I will now give you the opportunity to say a little bit more about some of the other areas that you know will be progressed or on which you expect to see progress in the forthcoming report.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Aarhus Convention

Meeting date: 12 November 2024

Maggie Chapman

I appreciate that repeal might be a blunt instrument, but do you accept—I do not know whether this question is for the minister or for Denise Swanson—that there is an issue with the joint test, particularly when it comes to accessing the right to a healthy environment, although I know that we do not have that right in statute yet? If a community group seeks action but its membership does not include everybody in that community who might be affected, and if those other members of the community are able to pay the costs, regulation 15 means that there is a barrier to that community group even beginning the process of accessing justice, never mind getting an outcome from proceedings.