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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 16 August 2025
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Displaying 1653 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

I want to shift focus and look at the three needs covered in the general duty. The third need鈥攆ostering good relations鈥攊s, I think, often ignored, seen as less important or is just talked about less. It is certainly our understanding that there is a lot of focus on equality and discrimination, but the fostering of good relations can get missed out.

Perhaps I can start with you, John. How can we talk about fostering good relations in a way that makes sense to people? What work does PHS do on the third need, not only to develop good relations, but to support others in doing the same?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is helpful. In some ways, it is good to hear you say that you do not see the issue as being sidelined or forgotten. That might vary across the country, but that is helpful. I ask Andrew Groundwater the same question.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is fine鈥攖hanks, Andrew.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

It is interesting that there are explicit requirements in relation to gender, such as the publication of gender pay gap reports. Do you think that that has helped to nudge progress on gender? Would similar equivalent metrics that make the public sector do certain things for certain protected characteristics help in other areas in which there are widening inequalities?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

We see widening inequality and we see equality regressing in so many different areas. As Andrew Groundwater said, if a lot of the focus has been on compliance and process, how do we make the shift if we still need standardisation or comparability of data collection? If we are still not doing that, after however many years the policy has been in place, how are we using the equality duty to make things better for people on the ground? We might have a good process, but how do you see it translating to positive outcomes?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks for that. You were clear in what you said about being able to share good practice and in what you said about departmental silos. There are organisational silos and institutional silos, and you have the opportunity to blur some of those boundaries. That could be very effective.

Do the proposed reforms of PSED go far enough? Would you like to see them go further or do more鈥攐r give you more opportunity to do more鈥攖o ensure that we achieve the outcomes that we want to achieve through PSED?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

John, I ask you the same question. Given some of the significant challenges with the public sector completely missing equalities targets and outcomes, what are the challenges with the PSED as it stands? You spoke about a focus on prevention. The committee has heard about the inadequate support that has been provided for the range of services that groups such as disabled people should expect to receive.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks for that. You mention the need for skills and expertise and the need for data analysts who can identify data and provide support to organisations. However, one can be good at data analysis without necessarily knowing how to translate that into policy or action. Will the proposed reforms support you with that, or is there still something missing in the Scottish Government鈥檚 look ahead for the PSED?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

鈥攑articularly in relation to some of the other rights that you talked about, such as marches and the right to protest. Some communities clearly feel over-policed, but that is perhaps for another day.

Jillian, given your scrutiny role across the public sector, where are the good points when it comes to fostering good relations, and where do we fall short?