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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 16 August 2025
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Displaying 1653 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Would you like guidance to be addressed in the discussions that are happening about the PSED reform?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

I am going to shift focus a bit. A lot of our conversation has been around discrimination and the needs to eliminate discrimination and to advance equalities. Jatin Haria, right at the start, you talked about the potential conflict between the three needs in the Equality Act 2010 and the operational duties. The third need—fostering good relations—often gets overlooked. It is something that we are missing, both in the broader conversation about the public sector equality duty and in the proposed reforms. Do you think that public bodies understand what it means to foster good relations? How can we ensure that that need is taken as seriously as it should be?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

The frustration that you and Rohini Sharma Joshi feel comes out quite strongly in what you said.

Vic Valentine, given that the PSED is not delivering, what are the barriers and the failures?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

I want to shift the focus a little bit. In the public sector equality duty, three needs are outlined, and the third of them is about fostering good relations. That need is often overlooked; public bodies do not necessarily focus attention on it or fully understand what it means. I am interested in your thoughts on that.

Pauline, I will start with you. Where do you see the fostering of good relations in your work with public bodies on the public sector equality duty? Do they get it? Do they talk about it? Does it feature at all?

12:00  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

The example that you used is one that involves thinking about equality stuff at the end of a budgetary decision process, rather than thinking about the equalities impacts of budgetary decisions as they are being made.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thank you, Rohini. Vic, will you comment on fostering good relations? Where do you see the barriers and the opportunities? Is any work happening in that area?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is pretty stark and, arguably, pretty damning, given how long the duties have been in place.

On the second and third needs, I take the point about “advancing equality” being lesser, but do both “advancing equality” and “fostering good relations” need to become much more prominent in the Scottish Government’s work on current and future reviews and the public sector equality duty, given the level of hate crime, the rise of the far right and the undermining of equality and diversity work that is happening across the board and not just in Scotland? Does there need to be more focus on that?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

I will shift the focus a bit. We have talked quite a lot about the process and the mechanics of the duty and about issues around how the duty is used to identify and deal with inequality and discrimination. The third need in the public sector equality duty, which I think is often overlooked or ignored, is the need to foster good relations. I am interested in the views from each of you on how that need is understood and interpreted. Do you have examples of how that need is used as a tool or mechanism for good practice for fostering good relations? I will start with Alyia Zaheed.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is really helpful. You spoke about the need to take a more coherent view, which chimes with the earlier panel’s remarks about harmonising things. Do you think that the Scottish Government’s proposed changes go far enough? Is there enough in them to deliver the kind of transformation that you would like to see, or give you what you need in order to deliver the outcomes that you want?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is helpful, and quite a strong steer for us in considering how we support the changes, so thank you for that.

Nicky—I will ask you the same initial question. In what ways is the PSED not strong enough or falling down in its operation, practice and understanding, given that we are seeing increasing inequalities, both between and within protected characteristics groups in Scotland?