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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 16 August 2025
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Displaying 1653 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

You talk about the investigation and the lessons to be learned. “Itemising” might not be the right word, but it would be helpful if that process could include a very clear explanation of how recommendations provided in previous experiences of restructuring were implemented and taken forward. There may be good reasons why some recommendations were not taken forward.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

University of Dundee

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Staff and students have been watching these proceedings live, and several of us will have got different emails over the course of the morning. I have just received one that I want to quote from. It says that

“as of next week”—

that is, the week beginning 24 March—

“staff members will find out if they will still have a job. yet there is no”

voluntary severance

“scheme and today they are saying that they will come up with another recovery plan in the next 2 weeks. it’s conflicting information”.

Can you confirm today that there will be no announcement of staff redundancies, voluntary or otherwise, next week?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Okay. There are a couple of specific areas where inconsistencies have been highlighted to us. For example, we heard from BEMIS on the characteristic of race; although it covers colour, nationality and ethnic or national origin, the focus, usually, is on colour, not on ethnic origin or anything else. Has that example come up in your conversations with duty bearers? Has there been a recognition that the characteristic of race, for example, embodies much more than just that one part? After all, if that is true for the characteristic of race, it is probably true for other characteristics, too.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks. I will leave it there for now.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

It is helpful to draw out those broader examples that might not sit within PSED reporting. Perhaps that is also something for us to think about—how we talk about the fostering good relations element of PSED.

There are some challenges, and we heard from the EHRC this morning that the police, for instance, have a key role in supporting the fostering of good relations in different ways. Do those issues form part of your conversations with agencies such as the police? What is the Scottish Government’s role in furthering this need—the requirement to foster good relations—especially with an organisation such as the police that has been identified as being institutionally racist? How can we expect different communities to trust that type of organisation to foster good relations? How do we unpick that knotty issue? I realise that that is a small question with big consequences and implications.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

If there are particular groups that are having difficulties realising their equalities rights and human rights, is PSED the right tool to ensure that we, as the public sector generally, take those responsibilities and duties seriously, instead of saying, “Yeah, it’s difficult, so we’re just not going to bother.”? That is not done out of malice, but we quite often hear from people with lived experience of discrimination and from organisations that support different communities that some public authorities think, “It’s too hard, so we’re just not going to touch it.”

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Do you hear questions being asked about that? Are the Scottish Government or other public agencies starting to think about it as we move towards reforming the PSED? Are people more alive to it and trying to get to grips with what it means? You are right that there is nervousness or reticence because they do not know what the duty is, what it looks like or what it means practically in day-to-day operations. Are those conversations happening in relation to reform?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is really helpful, but quite a lot of questions arise from your comments, Bill. From what you have said, the inference might be that fostering good relations is something that happens, maybe not on a widespread basis but in a much more integrated way, south of the border. I am not sure that I see evidence of that. I am interested in your perspective, given that across the EHRC, you will share information, knowledge and practice around that. In England, is better attention paid to fostering good relations, given that there is a relationship that directly feeds into the human rights sphere there?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Others want to come in on the subject, too, so I will leave it there.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Another interesting issue came up in evidence last week. You talked about the action plan for Gypsy and Traveller communities. On the issue of racism, there was an expectation that health boards would put together and draw up anti-racism action plans. Is it your intention that all public bodies with responsibilities under the PSED should have an anti-racist action plan? If so, do you see that just being done in a phased way rather than requiring everybody to do it all at once? Can we speed things up a little bit?