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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 August 2025
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Displaying 1653 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 2 April 2025

Maggie Chapman

I welcome the pilot, but I have a couple of questions about it. The first is on timescales. First, when do you hope that the pilot could be under way? Secondly, before Katy Clark’s intervention, you mentioned the importance of advocacy; however, in this context, we are talking not about advocacy but about advice. It is important that we retain the distinction between advocacy and advice, because they are two distinct and important services.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 2 April 2025

Maggie Chapman

You said that a service already exists. I am familiar with an advocacy service that exists at the moment, but the problem is that it is not national—not all survivors have access to it. On the point about whether it is a matter for a budget discussion rather than something to be put into legislation, part of the problem is that, because of budgetary constraints, some complainers never get support. Putting the provision on a statutory footing would make it much more likely that more survivors would get the advocacy support that they need. How does the cabinet secretary answer the recommendation of Lady Dorrian, given that what currently exists is not sufficient?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 2 April 2025

Maggie Chapman

Can you give a little bit of an explanation about your rationale for limiting the amendment only to rape? Do you not think that there would be value in including other sexual offences?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 2 April 2025

Maggie Chapman

Will the cabinet secretary give way?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft] [Draft]

Scottish Human Rights Commission

Meeting date: 1 April 2025

Maggie Chapman

Oonagh, you talked earlier about the failure to include that in conversation. I am thinking about how we solve this knotty problem. Maybe we do overcomplicate things. I also think that, if we want to get to over there, we probably should not be starting from here. Is there something fundamentally wrong with the structures that we have in Government, in local authorities, and in the relationships between national and local government and governance, even before we start bringing in integration joint boards?

Are there structural barriers here that, with the best will in the world—I think that you have all acknowledged that there is will here—are preventing us from tackling the problem?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft] [Draft]

Scottish Human Rights Commission

Meeting date: 1 April 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks. Oonagh, you wanted to come in.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft] [Draft]

Scottish Human Rights Commission

Meeting date: 1 April 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is really helpful and powerful.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft] [Draft]

Scottish Human Rights Commission

Meeting date: 1 April 2025

Maggie Chapman

Good morning to the witnesses and thank you for joining us. I echo the apology that Jan Savage gave at the start—none of us wants to be in this situation, and it is right that we acknowledge that the people who are most directly affected should not be in such a situation.

To follow on from the responses to Paul O’Kane’s questions, there was that case last year that made it clear that detention that was based on learning disability alone was not lawful. Obviously, that was without the legal mechanisms. Cathy Asante, you said that no such case has been brought into domestic law along the same lines. Are you aware of conversations between ministers and local authorities or local authorities and care providers about the legal risk that Paul O’Kane spoke about? It should not take the threat of legal action to change the situation.

It seems as though there is something lacking in the care or support that would enable people to become de-institutionalised: we know that what is happening is technically legal, but it should not be, and we know that we should be able to provide the support in communities. Is it a question of resourcing or the lack of availability of care workers, or is it due to something more fundamental than that?

11:00  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft] [Draft]

Scottish Human Rights Commission

Meeting date: 1 April 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is really helpful. In some ways, that leads me nicely on to my next couple of questions, which are also about some of the key findings of your report.

Your report said that you

“found little meaningful engagement with human rights standards.â€

Do people know that those standards are in place? Is it a question of awareness and understanding, or is that awareness and understanding there and what we are lacking is oversight? Or is it, as you suggested in answer to another question, all of the above? We sitting around this table might think that we have an understanding of those human rights standards, but are you convinced that there is awareness and understanding among the people who are out there providing the support and the institutionalisation, before we even get to oversight?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft] [Draft]

Scottish Human Rights Commission

Meeting date: 1 April 2025

Maggie Chapman

That was helpful. Jan, you said that there has not been more focus on that issue—deadlines come and go, et cetera—and there is a lack of outrage about it. Is there underlying cultural prejudice in society and all of the institutions that are supposed to support the transition away from institutionalisation? Are people with learning disabilities not taken seriously or considered to be of as much importance as they should be?