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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 August 2025
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Displaying 1653 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

I will leave it there.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

I want to explore a bit further the issue of depathologising. I appreciate that the context of private versus state healthcare in Denmark is different, and that we have issues around waiting times that we have well explored. Did that depathologising come across as a really significant shift in the experiences of the trans people you interviewed?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

I will stick with first names, too.

I thank all three witnesses for coming to the meeting and for their opening statements. It has been helpful to hear those in relation to some of the other things that we have heard today and prior to today.

I will ask a couple of questions about the case for change and some of the requirements that we would be removing from the gender recognition process if we pass the bill as it is, which are for medical and psychological diagnosis and for the panel of experts to have an important assessment, or gatekeeping, role.

Sandra, you talked about the polarised concerns that we experience in the UK not being manifested elsewhere. Could you say a little more about how the case for reform that we hear, particularly in Scotland, has been different elsewhere? Where did the catalyst for reform come from elsewhere, if it was not borne out of the same kind of debate that we might be having here in Scotland?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Good morning, panel. Thank you for joining us this morning and for the evidence that you are providing today. I also thank the SHRC for the written evidence that it submitted prior to the meeting.

I have a couple of questions for the SHRC and Victor Madrigal-Borloz. Victor, in your opening remarks, you said that the requirements for a gender identification process include its being accessible, fast and widely available. You then said that there are other requirements that you would be prepared to elaborate on. Can you elaborate on requirements that you see as being necessary and important if we are to get the process right?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Professor Sullivan, may I just interrupt you? That is not really the question that I asked. The question that I asked was about the process for getting a GRC, because that is what the bill that we are considering is about. We are not considering how medical records are stored, held or used, or how different lists for different screening processes are managed. Given that there are trans people who do not have a GRC who get—or, possibly, do not get—the medical treatment that they require, why does changing the process of getting a GRC have the impact that you claim that it does?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Thank you. I have just one follow-up. We heard something in a previous session that I suppose comes down to that question of harm and what has been described to us as the competing rights of different groups. I think that you both mentioned in your introductory remarks that it is important for us to keep in mind the notion of confidentiality linked to the privacy of trans people. We heard previously that the right to privacy for trans people going through an accessible non-invasive process would come with very serious consequences. Are you saying that your assessment is that those serious consequences are not based in objective evidence at the moment? Does your assessment indicate that there will not actually be serious harm and that no serious consequences would arise if we were to pass the bill?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Thank you, that is really clear.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

No—the distinction that you made at the end of it is really helpful.

Chris, I would like to ask you about your detailed analysis and knowledge of the situation in Denmark. It has been suggested that your research has found that there is a desire in Denmark to make access to medical treatment pathways self-declared, too. Can you say a little more about that? From your analysis and research, what is your position on medical gatekeeping in relation to the different stages of transition that people might go through?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Thank you, that is helpful.

In your view, is depathologisation an integral part of the bill that we are scrutinising?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Thanks. That is helpful.

A moment ago, you talked about the importance of language, how it is used and the need for it to be clear and not dehumanising. I was struck by one of your earlier comments in response to one of Rachael Hamilton’s questions on data collection and people answering the sex question based on a process of self-identification or self-declaration. You likened it to the age question, and I think that you said that we do not expect people to

“make up whatever age they like.”

Are you saying that people make up whatever gender they like?