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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 June 2025
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Displaying 1574 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Michael Marra

That is useful. There is also a question about the political coherence of the goals. As much as we have had one governing party in Scotland for 17 years, I do not think that anybody would dispute that we have had a variety of different approaches and, frankly, core beliefs in that time. Some people in the Government do not believe that economic growth is a positive thing at all, while others think that it is the only thing that matters. We have people from the original Administration that was elected in 2007 and which set this out who are now First Minister, while others are saying in the press that Scotland is effectively a third-world nation. How can we put together a long-term process under one Government if it departs so radically in its understanding of the organising principles of its purpose?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Michael Marra

We have had a comparatively stable Government in Wales for that long period of time—one party in government—but with ideological coherence across that period, which has not been the case here.

My final question is about whether, if everything is a priority, nothing is a priority and about some of the commentary about how bland the outcomes are. Is it not better to have these technocratic goals set in the non-contestable space? There are things that we know. Climate change is happening, adaptation has to occur and we have to transition. There are no voices in Parliament that disagree with those things. I understand that there are voices on the fringes of politics that disagree, but in the core those things are non-contestable.

Some of the issues that are within those things, particularly the role of economic growth and whether we should have a wellbeing approach versus something that is driven around GDP, is clearly contested around the Cabinet table, let alone within Parliament. How can we have a long-term goal that is based on an ideological framework that the Deputy First Minister, members of the Cabinet and the First Minister do not agree on?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Michael Marra

To be fair, convener, we were not in power at that time. It is a recognisable point, but we are talking about the operation of the framework in Scotland under the Government.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Michael Marra

I want to ask about what we should do in the tax area, which Lewis Ryder-Jones and Allan Faulds have touched on.

Lewis, you said that we have not yet reached the limits of where we should go on tax, but the Scottish Fiscal Commission has told us that, in relation to the top rate of tax, we are looking at behavioural effects of around 90 per cent. Off the top of my head, I think that we are talking about a reduction in the sum that the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government was supposed to have available to spend as a result of the last year’s tax increases from about £80 million or £90 million to £8 million. I do not see what we can do in that area to realise more of that money.

You mentioned middle-income earners and increasing the revenue from them. We know that most of the money that has been raised in recent years has come from middle-income earners because of fiscal drag and people being pulled into the upper tax brackets. Those are people who earn between £40,000 and £50,000. At the moment, they do not feel rich—far from it—because prices are increasing and so on. I think that you recognise that. The committee is wrestling with the issue of how we might realise more of that money. Could you say a bit more about how you think that that could be done?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Michael Marra

I am interested in the stability issue in relation to longer-term investment, where we are getting the money from and how it might be spent. Public Health Scotland says in its submission that, in the current climate, there is

“a tendency towards more reactive, short-term responses.”

We are in the third year of emergency in-year budget cuts from the finance secretary and of very short-term decisions being taken within the financial year. Can any of our witnesses talk about the challenges that that creates in the organisations that they represent, whether in the health service or for users of services more generally?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 17 September 2024

Michael Marra

Multiyear settlements would be good, but multimonth settlements would be good, too. At the moment, it seems that projects are being thrown into turmoil in-year because, across the board, budgets are being cut in-year rather than from year to year. However, I am emphasising a slightly different point. I absolutely agree that longer-term, multiyear settlements can help to mitigate some of that but, at the moment, the management of public finances in Scotland is resulting in in-year chaos.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Michael Marra

Professor Heald, in the evidence that you have given today and in your submission, you have mentioned super-parity policies—which I will call “more generous policies”, in layman’s terms—and you raised that issue previously. On 8 March 2022, you said:

“This is the time when Scotland should take stock of where it is. One thing that I would like to see in the spending review is serious data on what the future spend on the above-parity programmes will be in the next five or 10 years.”—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 8 March 2022; c 5.]

However, you are here again, more than two years later, making the point about the gap around our more generous programmes and our lack of understanding of it. Is sufficient planning on understanding that gap and being able to express the difference so that we can plan for the future, even in the medium term, taking place?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Michael Marra

With regard to place-based opportunities and economic development in the Highlands, for instance, are there plans or strategies that will be able to deliver those kinds of jobs?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Michael Marra

I will stick with the same issue. Last week’s announcements were a source of significant dismay for many people who were here to talk about a strategic approach to the budget, but what Richard Robinson has just said, on behalf of Audit Scotland, is that taking a set amount of money and using it to pay for recurring spending is a pretty short-term approach.

In October 2023, Audit Scotland said that

“The Scottish Government’s projections suggest that it cannot afford to pay for public services in their current form”

and that the Scottish Government’s approach to planning for future workforce and pay costs

“will not address current and future capacity challenges and is unlikely to balance public finances.”

Do you think that the Scottish Government has heeded those warnings?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 10 September 2024

Michael Marra

A year previously, in November 2022, Audit Scotland said that

“Rising costs and increasing demands mean that the Scottish Government has to closely and carefully manage its position”

and that

“The pace and scale of reform required across the public sector needs to increase.”

However, there does not seem to be any evidence that those warnings have been heeded. I have a list of various reports from Audit Scotland over the years, and it does not seem that the Scottish Government is responding to those in any way by looking at finances even in the medium term.