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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 June 2025
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Displaying 1574 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Care Reform (Scotland) Bill: Financial Summary

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Michael Marra

That is useful. There is already some language in terms of civil servants, names of departments and so on. I understand that changing those might not be a priority, but, for clarity and for the public, I note that you started out by saying that you want there to be transparency as to those who are accountable. It is important to recognise that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Care Reform (Scotland) Bill: Financial Summary

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Michael Marra

Okay. That is useful.

In your opening remarks to the convener, you said that the state of the financial projections is a function of the bill being at stage 2 rather than at stage 3. You have to recognise that we cannot evaluate a financial memorandum on that basis. Financial memorandums are presented at the start of the scrutiny of a bill, with projections. We look at them and consider whether they are realistic, and we ask the kind of questions that the convener has been asking. We cannot just have a blank cheque, waiting for what might happen at stages 2 and 3. That is not a reasonable position, is it?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Care Reform (Scotland) Bill: Financial Summary

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Michael Marra

There are other reasons why you have been back in front of the committee. One of your predecessors, Kevin Stewart, objected to the idea that the bill might cost up to £1.2 billion. We then had evidence from civil servants and from you that it could cost up to £3.9 billion. The range of figures that you have brought to the committee over the past several years has been staggering, given the difference between them and the lack of clarity. We are still in a position, now, where we are referencing three different sets of documents across different timeframes in trying to understand what the variety of cost impacts might be. Do you think that that is being transparent to the public?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Care Reform (Scotland) Bill: Financial Summary

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Michael Marra

You started by saying to the convener that you have to be accountable to the public. Do you think that the public could understand that variety of different documents and the fact that we are comparing them? For instance, the original financial memorandum was extrapolated over 10 years, with a sum of £1.8 billion to £3.9 billion, but the new financial update covers seven years, with a cost of £436.6 million to £724.8 million. Even the timeframes over which you are undertaking the analysis are not comparable. Is there a reason for that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Care Reform (Scotland) Bill: Financial Summary

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Michael Marra

So, it costs about 10 per cent less than it did. However, the bill is a fraction of the size that it was and its ambition is significantly less than it was—part 1 was deleted entirely. I understand that there is no direct relationship between the number of words in a bill and the number of civil servants who work on it, but the bill is a significantly different beast from what it was. Could the committee have clarity on that monthly cost? It would be fine for that to be given in writing.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Michael Marra

Given the evidence that we heard in the previous session, I wonder whether the three of you might agree that it is not really appropriate for a very eminent member of your profession, appointed to this position, to spend a large amount of time looking for an office and internet connections. Is that a waste of public money?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Michael Marra

We have been hearing about the adversarial nature of some of these inquiries, where there is an eminent KC standing in front of what is, in essence, a courtroom and asking for evidence from an individual and putting them on the stand about decisions that might have been made and where those might have flowed from. It is about whether that is the right model. If we have people like you who are employed—rightly, within this model; I do not deny that—to protect the interests and liabilities of a set of people as they may pertain to future legal action, as well as the inquiry that they are in, does that not run against some of your first premise, of assisting the inquiry?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Michael Marra

My definition or interpretation of “adversarial” is probably not the strict legal interpretation. “Aggressive” might be another way to describe it. I will rest on that.

The last area that I will ask about is the application of artificial intelligence in these kinds of inquiries. We have heard so far in evidence about the huge amounts of documentation that are involved. Have you seen AI triaging of large document sets in public inquiries?

13:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Michael Marra

I tend to agree with that. Have you seen any other examples of the use of AI in public inquiries?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Michael Marra

Have you seen any of those systems being used for redaction? Lawyers might have to do large-scale redaction across many thousands of documents, and we have heard in evidence that there are significant resource implications of AI being used to identify names and particulars and to carry out redaction on a mass basis. Have you seen that, Mr Clancy?