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We have talked a little about the example of people using changing spaces, so you are aware of that. I will watch my wording, but another example is that, if a woman of colour—perhaps someone who is Indian—or a Muslim woman goes to a doctor, asks for a smear test, for example, asks for a female doctor and the doctor is a trans female, the patient would not know, and it is not up to the trans person to tell the patient who they are, because that is their right, which is understandable. It would break the religion of that female if she later found out that the doctor was trans, but she would not have had the opportunity to know, because the trans person has the right to privacy. However, the person with the religious belief also has the right to know who they are being treated by.

It would be good if you could tell us how we can reach a happy medium in which we respect both sides and come out with a balanced view that can help services to be delivered.

Thank you for being so honest about that, Senator Doherty. In looking at our bill now, we have a good opportunity to look at those areas.

I want to go back to what my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy spoke about in relation to the work that you did with groups around accessing services and single-sex spaces, and to touch on women of faith. You have probably been following our committee’s work. People have raised that issue with me personally, and it has also been brought up in the committee. How did you go about addressing that issue in your 2015 act? Did religious groups and women of faith raise that issue of accessing services and single-sex spaces? Did you come across that in any of the work that you did?

Thank you very much, Senator Doherty. I have one last point, on the back of my colleague Fulton MacGregor speaking about age. Perhaps you could elaborate on that.

You know that we are looking at changing the age for a GRC from 18 to 16 years old. We have heard from many people on that—some are for and some are against. On the one hand, there is the fact that, at 16 or 17, someone can go ahead and get married, and they can vote. On the other hand, people have concerns because they feel that those people are not yet adults who are able to make such decisions. At that age, people cannot get a credit card, for example—certain things cannot happen in their life.

What is your view on balance in that regard, if we go down to 16? I know that, in your legislation, that age cohort requires both parental consent and medical evidence in order to be granted the court order that is required. Perhaps you can touch on that a little bit.

Good morning to the panel. Thank you for your opening statements and the information that you have provided. On the back of what my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy has been talking about, what are your thoughts on the system being open to abuse by bad-faith actors who wish to gain access to single-sex spaces; and what are your thoughts on specific concerns for women of faith?

Good afternoon, panel, and thank you for your opening statements. My questions are about the potential for these reforms to allow bad-faith actors to obtain GRCs more easily. The self-ID-based gender recognition system in Victoria, Australia, includes additional checks and safeguards for applicants such as registered sex offenders and prisoners. Are you aware of any other international examples of such additional checks? Do you believe that those additional checks would provide an important additional safeguard?

You say that a trans woman is a woman and a trans man is a man. How do you feel about religious people—minority groups out there—who feel that their religion will be impacted if somebody else is in that space? We heard in one of our private sessions that that would exclude more women and girls from minority groups. I do not know whether you have an example, but it would be good to hear your thoughts on why minority groups would not be affected if a trans woman came into a changing room, space or service.

I have one more question. Are there any international comparisons, whether from Europe or outside Europe, that you have made with regard to religious rights? Obviously we have to ensure that we do not take anyone’s rights away, whether they be trans or religious rights, and that we work in a balanced way. Have you experienced or seen anything out there that you can speak about with regard to balancing both sets of rights, whether it be to single-sex spaces or single-sex services?

Is there anything that you want to add, Dr Dietz?

Let me be very clear, Peter—I am in no way saying that it is trans people who are these bad-faith actors. Unfortunately there are such people out there—it is not the trans people. I am focusing on this, because people have asked the question. People might say that they are trans and use that, which is absolutely wrong, and these bad-faith actors might end up thinking that, if they have the GRC, they have something that they can use to go into these places. That is why I am asking about safeguards to ensure that we do not let these people in and that we are fair. In no way am I saying that any trans people are like that.

Okay. Could I hear from Barbara, please?