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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 June 2025
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Displaying 713 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

You will be glad to know that I have only two more questions.

The Scottish Prison Service policy for the management of transgender people in custody allows for some men and trans identities to be housed in the women’s estate. That includes violent men, providing they do not have a known record of violence against women. In its equality and human rights impact assessment, the SPS says that it is public sector equality duty compliant. Is the Scottish Government confident that the SPS is PSED compliant?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Please do discuss them, because the situation right now is not very fair for women and girls out there. They do not have their dignity, respect or fairness right now, because they have to share single-sex spaces and services in many places. I hope that the Government will provide some clarity on this issue.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Good morning, and thank you for the information that you have provided so far.

John Wilkes, last week we heard from Jatin Haria from the Coalition for Racial Equality and Rights. On the issue of reporting on the gender pay gap for women, he said:

“the numbers are stark enough to suggest that somebody is not doing their job.”—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 11 March 2025; c 15.]

When I asked him to go into more detail, he said that the issue extends to the Scottish Government and the Equality and Human Rights Commission. What is your response to that?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you for providing clarity. There is fear about how people are interpreting the law for their organisations and fear that many more legal cases will be spurred on, because people are unclear about what should be done. As a member of the Parliament, I can see that people are unclear, so it was important that I asked you the question about how the EHRC perceives the issue, which is about how people are interpreting the law. You have guidance, which, I take it, any organisation can approach you for. Your doors are open, which is a good thing.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

We live in hope.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Last week, I asked a witness from Engender whether

“lesbian clubs and associations with 25 or more members should be able to exclude all males, including those with gender recognition certificates”.—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 11 March 2025; c 28.]

She said that she could not comment on the issue. Is the EHRC able to comment on it?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Going back to what you said about ethnicity data, you are probably aware that women of colour are more disadvantaged. They are also further away from the labour market and, when they are in that labour market and working, they sometimes come across many prejudices. Culture plays into that as well. Are you doing anything around that? You mentioned the mainstreaming strategy. Are you doing any work on how areas such as culture affect women of colour, especially when they are working or looking for work?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

I want to probe that point. You talk about dignity and respect, and in one of your answers, you said that, as you are a woman of BAME background, like me, you know when an issue is affected by certain religious aspects.

Last week, I said that Governments and organisations were on the one hand giving rights to prayer rooms but, on the other hand, taking away a right to single-sex facilities. As a woman of colour and religion, you know that before a person goes into a prayer room, they have to visit the bathroom. If you are going to a single-sex space, that is fine, because you have respect and dignity, but when that space is up for question and becomes a unisex space—people out there, who are listening to this session, are very confused on this—what happens then? You will not need the prayer room because you cannot go in to the bathroom and do your wudu steps before prayer. What is the use of providing something but then taking away a right somewhere else?

You are right—it is not a competition—but there has to be a fair balance. Right now, I do not think that women of colour—even women and girls who are out there, in general—are finding that balance, because there is no respect and dignity in sharing a unisex toilet or facility with a biological male.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

I have a few other questions. You touched on domestic abuse, minister. I have spoken to countless survivors of sexual assault and domestic abuse. Many of those women do not feel comfortable when surrounded by men and have stressed the importance of single-sex spaces. Do you believe that a woman who does not want to share a space with a trans-identified male should have to explain why, for example by disclosing a history of sexual assault or domestic abuse?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

So you could not comment on whether the SPS is compliant.